Schooliform

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mudsticks

mudsticks

Squire
I wonder if this has any bearing on the debate??
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ue-on-teaching-children-obedience-study-finds

The whole strict uniform policy to impose order thing seems a bit overdone to me.

It suggests a lot more to do with corporate image branding of a school.

Less to do with instilling ideas of self discipline, or respect for oneself or others.

If you want to promote respect for oneself and others - including respect for others differences - then forcing everyone into the same generic polyester nastiness which is often very uncomfortable doesn't seem top of the list for achieving that.

If you want to tackle bullying and the attitudes / behaviours that allow bullying to proliferate then you've got to get the whole school ethos right.
Not fuss about shades of grey of trousers or skirts, or even heaven forfend a bit of stretch in a trouser that might make them slightly more comfortable to wear all day.

Fwiw my kids went to schools that had varying degrees of uniform policy and enforcement.

No noticeable correlation between uniform policy and outcomes or atmosphere in the school.

Unsurprisingly that was far more to do with the leadership, and teamwork of the staff, and actual care and respect for the kids and their learning and development both academic and social.
 
BoldonLad

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
icowden said:
The benefit is that the children all wear the same thing so there is no bullying because Nike's are cool and you only have poundland trainers etc.
Kids always push the boundaries of uniforms. It's down to the school to enforce it.

At my daughters school they get some freedom to choose their own clothes in 6th form, but if the clothing is inappropriate (mini skirts for example) there will be a letter to parents, or the parent may be called to bring appropriate clothing in. In my daughters first 6th form games session, some of the older girls decided that "black PE shorts" meant booty shorts. They were given baggy PE shorts to wear from lost property and told not to wear inappropriate attire.
Click to expand...

Do fee paying schools have annual school uniform protests, from parents and/or pupils?
 
spen666

spen666

Well-Known Member
icowden said:
This just in from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66795270

Personally I disagree with excluding the girls, as it is the parents that should be penalised. They knew the School had a uniform policy and failed to buy appropriate clothing. End of.

Repeatedly bringing them into the school office during working hours would soon sort it out.
Click to expand...

If by "them" you are referring to the parents, the good luck with that. A school has no power to force a parent to come into school during working hours or otherwise
 
Rusty Nails

Rusty Nails

Country Member
mudsticks said:
Fwiw my kids went to schools that had varying degrees of uniform policy and enforcement.

No noticeable correlation between uniform policy and outcomes or atmosphere in the school.
Click to expand...

So no more problems with a stricter uniform policy.

The usual start of school year clickbait stories so beloved by both sides of the argument.
 
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mudsticks

mudsticks

Squire
Rusty Nails said:
So no more problems with a stricter uniform policy.
Click to expand...

There are definitely problems around strict uniform policies for kids from low income backgrounds, or for the kids of parents who can't be bothered to, or won't toe the 'uniform' line.

If kids are of a mind to bully on the basis of 'difference' then they'll do it.

For instance if they find out that a kid has got their 'correct' uniform from the school second hand shop for instance...

The tendency to bully, is what needs to be addressed.

I think it's falsehood to assert that a 'smart' or even 'uniform' uniform can really sort the ethos of a school.

And it suggests that judging peoples 'character' , or 'worth' by their appearance is somehow a sound principal - which leads to all kinds of problems in other areas.
 
Rusty Nails

Rusty Nails

Country Member
mudsticks said:
The tendency to bully, is what needs to be addressed.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Kids can be bullies just like adults, whether it is over uniforms or just general style of dress.

The annual furore over strict uniform codes is a distraction that leads people off on tangents about educational autocracies/freedom/subservience.

A year ago my granddaughter started in day nursery. She came home from nursery a week or two later to say that she wanted to wear a dress or skirt to school because the other girls wouldn't let her play with them because, of course, girls wore dresses and not shorts/leggings.

At 3 years old there was ganging up and a sort of bullying over 'uniform' which was clearly nothing to do with the "ethos" of the day nursery.
 
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Rusty Nails

Rusty Nails

Country Member
mudsticks said:
There are definitely problems around strict uniform policies for kids from low income backgrounds, or for the kids of parents who can't be bothered to, or won't toe the 'uniform' line.

If kids are of a mind to bully on the basis of 'difference' then they'll do it.

For instance if they find out that a kid has got their 'correct' uniform from the school second hand shop for instance...

The tendency to bully, is what needs to be addressed.

I think it's falsehood to assert that a 'smart' or even 'uniform' uniform can really sort the ethos of a school.

And it suggests that judging peoples 'character' , or 'worth' by their appearance is somehow a sound principal - which leads to all kinds of problems in other areas.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my post that you replied to should have said "not more" rather than "no more". Only one letter missing but it made a big difference.
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
theclaud said:
Excessive discipline and disproportionate punishment over trivial transgression of arbitrary rules seems to me to be barely indistinguishable from bullying. If you want people to respect rules, they need to see that they have a rationale.
Click to expand...

I think what you are saying here is that you don't understand the rationale, but that doesn't mean that there isnt one, or that it hasn't been carefully thought through, after all, draconian policies are highly likely to attract flak from parents, at least initially, and the involvement of the press who will seize upon any chance for outrage clicks. The schools will know this, and so it is very likely that there is a higher aim based on a succesful model.

I have two children of recent primary to secondary school age, so I have paid close attention to what is happening in local schools in nearby towns. There are several schools which were, up until a few years ago, absolutely feral. Worst of all were the outcomes for students which were demonstrably worse than those for equivalent students in other schools.

There is a metric for this called progress 8, which is some sort of comparison of results based on expected grades generated by SATS calculated from national averages. It tells a story that raw exam results will not because raw results are heavily skewed by intake (eg grammar schools). So you can, with a little digging, find out if the school is getting the best out of the students regardless of intake.

Some of these schools have been 'turned around'. Usually as a result of a disastrous Ofsted inspection and a change of academy sponsor and, naturally, headteacher. My daughter's previous (shìt) school appears to have undergone a surprise change of headteacher (a quick Google reveals he left the headship of a medium sized secondary school to take on the headship of a special school with 50 students....hmmm), and introduced a completely new system of uniform and behaviour rules, which are draconian. The academy sponsor hasn't changed so it looks to me that they saw the writing was on the wall.

We pulled her out because she told us that it was impossible to learn because there was so much disruption. She said her maths teacher spent a large proportion of every lesson crying. Does this sound like a functioning school to you? Does it sound like a school whose students will leave with the best results of which they are capable? How are disadvantaged students from poor families served by this?

Which brings me on to your earlier remark implying that strict behaviour systems are about incipient fascism and providing obedient workers ready to be oppressed by the ruling industrial class.

For the life of me I can't imagine how, say, a working class kid from a poor family unable and possibly unwilling to provide much support, will be better prepared for life leaving with a poor set of results and a shìt work ethic. All this achieves is entrenching class privilege and working class disadvantage. If you want to fight the class system you have to get disadvantaged kids into Oxbridge and redbricks...indeed you have to get them into universities in the first place. Because otherwise you leave the higher echelons of institutions as the preserve of the privately schooled.

A large part of this revolves around changing the aspirational culture of the students (and possibly the staff) and this will not happen by letting them run riot. It will only happen by creating a climate where all energies go into learning and none into dicking about.

It's remarkable how closely this mirrors the Starmer thread. With you and Adam wanting a Labour party that (despite what you say) will in reality remain a pointless and impotent party of protest, whereas I want one in a position to enact change.

I want a situation where the expensive and prestigious public school in a nearby town is providing the future plumbers and care workers for the labour force.

How do you think that is going to happen? By letting kids run riot in state schools?

There's a truism in parenting (with regards to behaviour) that if you stop the little things happening the big things won't happen. I see uniform as the embodiment of this. It's an easy win for the school in laying out their standards and expectations.
 
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newfhouse

newfhouse

pleb
That’s a long post that doesn’t explain the rationale for school uniform other than suggesting that it magically prevents riotous behaviour and promotes Oxbridge entry.

Maybe it’s a legacy of my own schooling but I’m not a fan of ineffability.
 
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