Schooliform

[multitool]

That’s a long post that doesn’t explain the rationale for school uniform other than suggesting that it magically prevents riotous behaviour and promotes Oxbridge entry.

Maybe it’s a legacy of my own schooling but I’m not a fan of ineffability.

At least we are at the point where perhaps you and a few others accept that you don't understand the rationale, and that just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is 'bollocks'.

Clearly, you are misrepresenting what I said because I did not say that it

magically prevents riotous behaviour and promotes Oxbridge entry

What I am saying is that it is likely part of a system of cultural change within a dysfunctional institution.

It seems to me that rigid rules about uniform are, somewhat counter-intuitively, probably designed to make uniform (or rather dress) a non-issue, just as rigid rules about behaviour will be. Why? So that the 'issue' becomes working and progress.

 

[newfhouse]

At least we are at the point where perhaps you and a few others accept that you don't understand the rationale

I readily admit I don’t agree with any of the justifications that have so far been offered, but it was you that suggested that the rationale was hidden or unknowable.

and that just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is 'bollocks'.

I tend not to trust assertions that run counter to my own experience unless accompanied by a clear line of reasoning.

What I am saying is that it is likely part of a system of cultural change within a dysfunctional institution.

Yes, but how does it work?

It’s not enough to use words like feral, riotous, and dysfunctional without explaining how a school uniform promotes study, or good behaviour, or parental engagement. Is it just that, in this country at least, most of the ‘better’ schools have a uniform policy? That sounds a bit like cargo cult thinking to me.

 

[C R]

At least we are at the point where perhaps you and a few others accept that you don't understand the rationale, and that just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is 'bollocks'.

Clearly, you are misrepresenting what I said because I did not say that it


What I am saying is that it is likely part of a system of cultural change within a dysfunctional institution.

It seems to me that rigid rules about uniform are, somewhat counter-intuitively, probably designed to make uniform (or rather dress) a non-issue, just as rigid rules about behaviour will be. Why? So that the 'issue' becomes working and progress.

Go on, what's the rationale then?

 

[multitool]

I readily admit I don’t agree with any of the justifications that have so far been offered, but it was you that suggested that the rationale was hidden or unknowable.

No, I didn't suggest that at all. I'm pointing out that your 'agreement' is not needed for a policy to be functional or rational. It seems highly rational to me and I have explained why.

I tend not to trust assertions that run counter to my own experience unless accompanied by a clear line of reasoning.

And this is the problem with lay discussions of education, because everyone considers themselves an 'expert' because they went to school.

Yes, but how does it work?

It’s not enough to use words like feral, riotous, and dysfunctional without explaining how a school uniform promotes study or good behaviour or parental engagement. Is it just that, in this country at least, most of the ‘better’ schools have a uniform policy? That sounds a bit like cargo cult thinking to me.

I have explained it. Several times. I dont think it is particularly revelatory to point out that in society high standards of dress are associated with high standards of performance. It's probably why you don't enter your GPs surgery to find them with their feet up on the desk wearing a kebab-stained t shirt.

It seems to me that schools want students' attention to be focused entirely on the learning content of the lesson, rather than on how they look. This is, I suspect, why my daughter is not allowed to wear make up to school.

But it is also signalling standards. Pride in appearance as a part of pride in oneself.

Thought experiment for you:

If you have a school where discipline has broken down then how do you reassert it? What mechanisms do you use? Go on...give us the benefit of your wisdom. Tell us exactly what systems you would put in place. And I don't want anything vague and ill defined because that won't do. Children will exploit grey areas.

And don't tell me that you would put kids in detention because they won't attend because that is already a facet of the discipline breakdown.

And don't tell me you would exclude kids because a) those kids won't care because they don't value themselves or school and b) schools get penalised for exclusions.

And don't tell us that it would be 'employ better teachers' because a) there is a shortage and b) the problems in the school are systemic so will need a systemic answer.

So go on...tell us.

I think you'll find the only answer is something to do with changing the entire culture of the school and how students see their place within it and quite literally what they are there to do.

 

[newfhouse]

I don’t have time for a long answer just yet, so as a placeholder I have one or two questions.

How does it work? Is it just that kids learn to obey, however pointless the instruction? Is that really a good preparation for adult life?

Why do European schools do so well given that, in general, they don’t bother with this nonsense?

 

[multitool]

I don’t have time for a long answer just yet, so as a placeholder I have one or two questions.

How does it work? Is it just that kids learn to obey, however pointless the instruction? Is that really a good preparation for adult life?

Why do European schools do so well given that, in general, they don’t bother with this nonsense?

Nope. I don't want questions. I want you to lay out what systems you would put in place to turn around a school where discipline has completely broken down and children are leaving school with results way below that of which they are capable, and concomitant low expectations and low self-esteem.

I'll wait.

Edit: oh fück it, I'll indulge you. But briefly because I've got shít to do. If you want to compare Euro schools, then you have to consider every difference, and one of the huge differences is the absence of significant private school systems in countries like Finland (often cited as the gold standard). Another might be the social status of teaching professionals themselves within society, how they are presented in the media, are they treated with respect or disdain, their pay, their qualifications required etc. But I think you also need to consider socio-economic factors outwith the secondary education system, such as wealth inequality, the Labour Market (zero hours etc), higher Ed uptake etc.

The question about pointlessness of instruction contains its own answer. It's not pointless. It's a highly pragmatic response to a situation on the ground in the form of a subtle psychological trick.

 

[BoldonLad]

No, I didn't suggest that at all. I'm pointing out that your 'agreement' is not needed for a policy to be functional or rational. It seems highly rational to me and I have explained why.




And this is the problem with lay discussions of education, because everyone considers themselves an 'expert' because they went to school.




I have explained it. Several times. I dont think it is particularly revelatory to point out that in society high standards of dress are associated with high standards of performance. It's probably why you don't enter your GPs surgery to find them with their feet up on the desk wearing a kebab-stained t shirt.

It seems to me that schools want students' attention to be focused entirely on the learning content of the lesson, rather than on how they look. This is, I suspect, why my daughter is not allowed to wear make up to school.

But it is also signalling standards. Pride in appearance as a part of pride in oneself.

Thought experiment for you:

If you have a school where discipline has broken down then how do you reassert it? What mechanisms do you use? Go on...give us the benefit of your wisdom. Tell us exactly what systems you would put in place. And I don't want anything vague and ill defined because that won't do. Children will exploit grey areas.

And don't tell me that you would put kids in detention because they won't attend because that is already a facet of the discipline breakdown.

And don't tell me you would exclude kids because a) those kids won't care because they don't value themselves or school and b) schools get penalised for exclusions.

And don't tell us that it would be 'employ better teachers' because a) there is a shortage and b) the problems in the school are systemic so will need a systemic answer.

So go on...tell us.

I think you'll find the only answer is something to do with changing the entire culture of the school and how students see their place within it and quite literally what they are there to do.

Good luck with that one

 

[theclaud]

I don't want questions.

Fair enough, but are they unreasonable ones?

I don't dispute your (or your daughter's) positive experience of a school with a strict uniform policy, but Mudsticks (for example) also offers parental experience and takes something different from it. And I'm not sure why people's own experience of schooling doesn't count. It seems reasonable to for me for adults to want to avoid inflicting on young people the negative experiences they endured.

 

[theclaud]

Sorry - didn't see the edit when I posted.

 

[multitool]

A further remark about dress code. We observe it elsewhere without question. For example, you probably wouldn't turn up to a funeral in beach shorts and a bare belly. Why? Because it might be viewed as being disrespectful to the recently deceased.

Clearly this is irrational as dead people are dead and cannot feel disrespected. And yet this behaviour fulfils some form of social function and moderates other aspects of our behaviour in ways which are not easily explainable.

We don't expect the funeral director to be wearing a flannel tracksuit and a doorag. Would it impede their performance? No. But it does speak in some way to the seriousness in which they approach the event.

I think this can be extended to school classrooms where students are not approaching their education with seriousness.

 

[BoldonLad]

Fair enough, but are they unreasonable ones?

I don't dispute your (or your daughter's) positive experience of a school with a strict uniform policy, but Mudsticks (for example) also offers parental experience and takes something different from it. And I'm not sure why people's own experience of schooling doesn't count. It seems reasonable to for me for adults to want to avoid inflicting on young people the negative experiences they endured.

Daughter No2 is a Maths Teacher in a "doubtful" Academy School.

I recall. her various objections to "School rules" when she was a teenage pupil herself.

It amuses me to now hear her supporting pretty much the same things she complained about, when a pupil, although, I keep my amusement to myself.

Can't negative experiences sometime have positive outcomes?

 

[multitool]

Sorry - didn't see the edit when I posted.

Why not...it's been up there for ages

And I'm not sure why people's own experience of schooling doesn't count. It seems reasonable to for me for adults to want to avoid inflicting on young people the negative experiences they endured.

I think there are a few points to make about this.

My own experience of schooling ended 36 years ago, and I'd suggest that this would be similar for many here. Not only might my memory be unreliable, but I would also be remembering the thoughts and feelings of a teenager. Not only that, but I would be extrapolating my experiences from the last millennium to a different era.

I went to a grammar school, and I'm not convinced that uniform did serve a necessary function, or at least I can't see such an imperative.

 

[theclaud]

A further remark about dress code. We observe it elsewhere without question. For example, you probably wouldn't turn up to a funeral in beach shorts and a bare belly. Why? Because it might be viewed as being disrespectful to the recently deceased.

Clearly this is irrational as dead people are dead and cannot feel disrespected. And yet this behaviour fulfils some form of social function and moderates other aspects of our behaviour in ways which are not easily explainable.

We don't expect the funeral director to be wearing a flannel tracksuit and a doorag. Would it impede their perfor.ance? No. But it does speak in some way to the seriousness in which they approach the event.

I think this can be extended to school classrooms where students are not approaching their education with seriousness.

Right. You want schools to be a bit like funerals. Got it.

 

[theclaud]

Why not...it's been up there for ages

Cos if you don't post immediately after reading something it doesn't auto-refresh.

 

[multitool]

Right. You want schools to be a bit like funerals. Got it.

Hi Aurora