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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
Didn't send any of my kids there needless to say. It's been interesting trying to work out what schools are actually like when choosing. We sent our eldest to a school that had had a good reputation, but we started to get concerned whilst child was in Year 7 at what she was telling us about student behaviour.

Then we got a really long letter home about a new system for tackling lateness to lessons with a really convoluted system of incremental punishments (first lateness 10 min detention with teacher, second lateness 30 min with year head, third...and so on).

What it told me was that:

a) they had a problem with students not bothering to turn up to lessons on time

and

b) they had instituted a ridiculously complex system that looked like it would be overburdening for staff to administer. (eg. what would they do if a student was late for the detention for lateness? Execute them?)

It sounded like management by firefighting. And if my suspicions were correct the new system would soon become unmanageable and behaviour would break down further. We decided to move her. On the day we took her to view another school, as we were dropping her back to the shìt school a girl came sprinting out of the school gates and down the road. Followed by the headteacher sprinting after her. Chaos.

What we learned from this experience is that it doesnt matter what the reputation of the school was previously. It only matters who is running it now, and poor leaders can sink a school very quickly.
 
AndyRM

AndyRM

Elder Goth
multitool said:
Anyone can criticise. Its the easiest thing in the world. But really you ought to show how you would devise a better approach.

So far your only 'solution' is that you would "make contact".
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Why? I don't work in education so anything I could come up with would either not work or just be silly. I'll give it a go though...

Don't bother with Junior Cluedo, improve school environments by making them fun and engaging atmospheres where children actually want to go, and actually try to understand the deeper reasons why a child might not want to attend. Not exactly rocket science, but probably not especially practical either.

As it happens, I know several people who work in education (including my fiancee), who I mentioned Junior Cluedo to and she just laughed. There's safeguarding in place which, generally, seems to do a good job though it's obviously not perfect.
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
AndyRM said:
Don't bother with Junior Cluedo, improve school environments by making them fun and engaging atmospheres where children actually want to go, and actually try to understand the deeper reasons why a child might not want to attend. Not exactly rocket science, but probably not especially practical either.
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Because of course, they won't be doing any of that, will they, and it will never have occurred to them either.

Maybe you should start a new career as an education consultant. You could go in and tell them:

improve school environments by making them fun and engaging atmospheres where children actually want to go, and actually try to understand the deeper reasons why a child might not want to attend
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£1000 a day. Job done. It's that easy.
 
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AndyRM

AndyRM

Elder Goth
multitool said:
Because of course, they won't be doing any of that, will they, and it will never have occurred to them either.

Maybe you should start a new career as an education consultant. You could go in and tell them


£1000 a day. Job done.
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As I said "I don't work in education so anything I could come up with would either not work or just be silly. I'll give it a go though..."

But you chose to leave that bit out for whatever reason.
 
OP
OP
icowden

icowden

Squire
AndyRM said:
Why? I don't work in education so anything I could come up with would either not work or just be silly. I'll give it a go though...
Don't bother with Junior Cluedo, improve school environments by making them fun and engaging atmospheres where children actually want to go, and actually try to understand the deeper reasons why a child might not want to attend. Not exactly rocket science, but probably not especially practical either.
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To be honest they probably are doing that. The article is very badly written.

The school will know who the poor attenders are. When someone with low attendance doesn't attend and no reason (or an unconvincing or unreasonable reason) is given to the school, the home school link worker or similarly titled individual will go round to the house to see why the child isn't attending. That person will have been told that if there is no answer from the house, then it would be reasonably to look for clues that the child and parents are away - this would include cars not on driveway, uncollected post, boiler being off, bins not out if bin day etc.

When the absence is recorded at the school, the school have to record the type of absence. If it is unauthorised (e.g. the parents have taken the kid on holiday and not told the school or not been authorised by the school) this is recorded and will be passed to the education authority (and social services if appropriate) who will then consider whether a fine is an appropriate deterrent.

Some parents will lie about their child being ill, but when the member of staff visits they find that no-one is in the house. You don't normally go out on trips if your child is ill.

The NEU's rep just spouted a load of rowlocks. It looks like the parents have decided that there is no negative side to taking a child out of school and it has turned into an epidemic. The head is trying to address that. Probably the biggest inequity is that if a parent from a low income group takes their child out of school for a day to spend a long weekend with granny or go on a cheap holiday, they get fined an amount which represents a serious chunk of their income, whereas a parent from a high income group that takes their child out of school to go skiing a week early just regards it as an additional holiday tax and the holiday is still cheaper than going at peak times.
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
AndyRM said:
As I said "I don't work in education so anything I could come up with would either not work or just be silly. I'll give it a go though..."

But you chose to leave that bit out for whatever reason.
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I think it's your assumption that whatever strategies are being employed here haven't been thought through, don't work, and aren't bound by all sorts of external factors.

I would have thought that the one thing any person facing a class of adolescents would try and do is make the lessons engaging. That they cannot do this 100% of the time for 100% of the students is perhaps because its impossible, especially given constraints imposed upon them (class sizes, curriculum etc etc)
 
AndyRM

AndyRM

Elder Goth
multitool said:
I think it's your assumption that whatever strategies are being employed here haven't been thought through, don't work, and aren't bound by all sorts of external factors.

I would have thought that the one thing any person facing a class of adolescents would try and do is make the lessons engaging. That they cannot do this 100% of the time for 100% of the students is perhaps because its impossible, especially given constraints imposed upon them (class sizes, curriculum etc etc)
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Obviously it's been thought through; my initial assumption is that the bin/car/post/steam thing is daft, and I still think that it is. Plenty of things are thought through and regulated but still don't work.

And yes, that's what I'd hope too, but a lot of teachers give up quite quickly in their careers precisely because of those constraints. That's what needs to change, really.
 
BoldonLad

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
AndyRM said:
Something that might actually make a difference perhaps? Actual contact, rather than checking up on bins, heating, post on doorsteps or cars on drive ways.

They're all flawed "solutions" in many ways.

Do I know what would be more effective? Nope. And I wouldn't pretend to either. But I suspect that weird observing would put people on the defensive and they'd find ways to get around it.
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Easier said than done, with some pupils and parents, according to daughter No2 (Maths teacher).
 
BoldonLad

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
multitool said:
I dunno.

He's not naming parents, so I'm not sure they would feel shame. I suspect its about really entrenched cases of absenteeism with parents lying about reasons. It Doncaster. He's not going to having students nicking off for a 2 week skiing holiday in Klösters.

My gut feeling is that this is a school under the 'scope for attendance figures (possibly from Ofsted) and the head is trying to show that the school is being proactive and taking the problem seriously. Naturally the media has got hold of it and spun it for outrage clicks (paging AndyRM) by making it look like schools are spying on families.
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I would not bet on that, I live in a "deprived area" and skiing holidays, or a quick trip to the sun in winter, are not unheard of.
 
Electric_Andy

Electric_Andy

Regular
The Schools are in a difficult position; they are penalised for poor attendance which can lead to poor results. They have a reputation to keep, else no-one will want to attend (if for example there is a choice, like in Plymouth there are 15+ high schools).

If a child's attendance is poor, I agree it's usually due to some anxiety or reluctance to go in. But that is not really the school's fault. They have to teach the curriculum and you can't exactly make all lessons exciting without top class teachers. We had 2 or 3 of them throughout my entire 5 years at school; the rest were boring, terrible, nasty or a combination of both.

The whole system needs looking at, not just coming up with flippant bills such as "everyone must do maths until aged 18". It's ridiculous. But it also needs the support of industry and of public opinion. Offering bespoke classes for those who don't want to do the traditional subjects would be a good idea I think (a sort of pre-apprenticeship), but industry and the general public need to be assured that these are not just "doss lessons for thicko's", but are a way of learning valuable skills that help keep kids engaged in school, and they emerge with something that people need in terms of actual skills and actual experience.
 
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icowden

icowden

Squire
Electric_Andy said:
If a child's attendance is poor, I agree it's usually due to some anxiety or reluctance to go in. But that is not really the school's fault. They have to teach the curriculum and you can't exactly make all lessons exciting without top class teachers. We had 2 or 3 of them throughout my entire 5 years at school; the rest were boring, terrible, nasty or a combination of both.
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Maybe we could try offering higher salaries for teachers and we might get better ones...
 
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