Schooliform

[multitool]

The "reply" button would have it made it clear, and, saved us both some time and wasted typing.

My bad

There are roughly 2,500 private schools in UK. So only 25 are elite?, ie 1%

Yes, I think so. Look for the little gold pinkie ring

Might be more than 25, but certainly not in the hundreds.

 

[BoldonLad]

My bad



Yes, I think so. Look for the little gold pinkie ring

Might be more than 25, but certainly not in the hundreds.

OK, if we accept you figure of approximately 25, why not simply abolish/close those Private Schools, and, leave the remaining 2,475 alone?

Wouldn't that get rid of this elitism of which you speak?

An aside. I got the figure of 2,500 from Google, I am a bit doubtful of it, since one of my grandchildren has attended three fee paying schools, all within a few miles of his "home" town.

 

[multitool]

Wouldn't that get rid of this elitism of which you speak?

Well firstly, I'm not sure by what mechanism you could close some independent schools but not others. A law to close independent schools is highly unlikely. A law to close just some of them is an impossibility.

Secondly, the elites are remarkably adept at maintaining their privilege. For change to be effective it has to at structural level, not just tinkering around the edges.

theclaud often refers to the need for structural change, and whilst she is pretty reluctant to put meat in the bones on what she means by this in concrete terms, and going to guess she wouldn't object to a change such as this.

 

[BoldonLad]

Well firstly, I'm not sure by what mechanism you could close some independent schools but not others. A law to close independent schools is highly unlikely. A law to close just some of them is an impossibility.

Secondly, the elites are remarkably adept at maintaining their privilege. For change to be effective it has to at structural level, not just tinkering around the edges.

theclaud often refers to the need for structural change, and whilst she is pretty reluctant to put meat in the bones on what she means by this in concrete terms, and going to guess she wouldn't object to a change such as this.

I wasn't asking about the practicalities of doing it, I was asking, if it were done, would it solve the problem of elitism.

I wasn't saying that I object to closing fee paying schools (if it was accompanied by an improvement in state schools standards).

This mythical "structural change" is akin to the discussions about "who are the wealthy", "what the Labour Party should stand for " etc. ie, a way to pass a rainy day, but, no good for much else.

 

[multitool]

This mythical "structural change" is akin to the discussions about "who are the wealthy", "what the Labour Party should stand for " etc. ie, a way to pass a rainy day, but, no good for much else.

I don't agree. It's sociology. It exists. How we organise ourselves into a society is a thing. It's not imaginary.

 

[icowden]

I don't agree. It's sociology. It exists. How we organise ourselves into a society is a thing. It's not imaginary.

But as I said, it manifests more in some areas than others. The press tends to be nepotistic. The law is the biggest area for the old school tie as you need to get pupillage and it's much easier to achieve that through the old school tie links. That continues through all the way to the appointment of Judges.

The second factor is about money rather than which school you went to. It's much easier to become an actor if your parents have money. You can afford the fees for drama school and to not have to make a living wage whilst you try to get jobs. Those that have to pay rent and buy food from their wages struggle a lot more.

 

[BoldonLad]

I don't agree. It's sociology. It exists. How we organise ourselves into a society is a thing. It's not imaginary.

I said “mythical” because, it has not been explained on here exactly what form this structural change would take.

 

[multitool]

I said “mythical” because, it has not been explained on here exactly what form this structural change would take.

Well, that would depend in the structure obviously.

 

[BoldonLad]

Well, that would depend in the structure obviously.

I will settle for your version of it, from you.

Who knows, @theclaud may wish to tell us her version, as may others of course

 

[newfhouse]

Nope. I don't want questions. I want you to lay out what systems you would put in place to turn around a school where discipline has completely broken down and children are leaving school with results way below that of which they are capable, and concomitant low expectations and low self-esteem.

I'll wait.

Edit: oh fück it, I'll indulge you. But briefly because I've got shít to do. If you want to compare Euro schools, then you have to consider every difference, and one of the huge differences is the absence of significant private school systems in countries like Finland (often cited as the gold standard). Another might be the social status of teaching professionals themselves within society, how they are presented in the media, are they treated with respect or disdain, their pay, their qualifications required etc. But I think you also need to consider socio-economic factors outwith the secondary education system, such as wealth inequality, the Labour Market (zero hours etc), higher Ed uptake etc.

The question about pointlessness of instruction contains its own answer. It's not pointless. It's a highly pragmatic response to a situation on the ground in the form of a subtle psychological trick.

Am I to understand that polyester conformity is the fix we need for inequality, chronic under investment, and societal disrespect for the teaching profession? And that wayward students can be instilled with an otherwise lacking esprit de corps and sense of self worth by a cost effective Jedi mind trick?

 

[BoldonLad]

Am I to understand that polyester conformity is the fix we need for inequality, chronic under investment, and societal disrespect for the teaching profession? And that wayward students can be instilled with an otherwise lacking esprit de corps and sense of self worth by a cost effective Jedi mind trick?

Another single trick pony, looking for silver bullets, but, with no solutions, or proposals.

 

[multitool]

Am I to understand that polyester conformity is the fix we need for inequality, chronic under investment, and societal disrespect for the teaching profession? And that wayward students can be instilled with an otherwise lacking esprit de corps and sense of self worth by a cost effective Jedi mind trick?

This is beneath you, newf.

 

[newfhouse]

This is beneath you, newf.

Tough crowd.

 

[theclaud]

This is beneath you, newf.

I thought it was funny. But seriously, I don't think psychological tricks, however subtle the tricksters imagine them to be, have a place in education (beyond a little temporary misdirection to illustrate a point).

 

[theclaud]

I will settle for your version of it, from you.

Who knows, @theclaud may wish to tell us her version, as may others of course

Not quite sure how I got roped into this particular barney. I expect, on the basis of this thread, that MT and I would advocate differently structured educational systems, but that neither of them would involve maintaining a tier of elite institutions that enable wealthy people to buy their children advantages unavailable to others.