Schooliform

[newfhouse]

Another single trick pony, looking for silver bullets

Sorry, I’ve been burning the midnight oil at both ends. Don’t beat a dead horse in the mouth.

 

[multitool]

I thought it was funny. But seriously, I don't think psychological tricks, however subtle the tricksters imagine them to be, have a place in education (beyond a little temporary misdirection to illustrate a point).

Wut?

Surely the entire basis of a teacher standing in front of a class of angry hormonal adolescents and maintaining their attention and behaviour is some sort of psychological trick.

Most of us will have experienced some teachers who were able to maintain order, and some who couldn't, and it wasn't just about interesting lesson content.

 

[BoldonLad]

I thought it was funny. But seriously, I don't think psychological tricks, however subtle the tricksters imagine them to be, have a place in education (beyond a little temporary misdirection to illustrate a point).

Ahh! We are talking about structural change of the education system?, somewhere, the word “society” was mentioned (not saying by you), I thought a complete restructure of society was being suggested. 😊

 

[theclaud]

Wut?

Surely the entire basis of a teacher standing in front of a class of angry hormonal adolescents and maintaining their attention and behaviour is some sort of psychological trick.

Most of us will have experienced some teachers who were able to maintain order, and some who couldn't, and it wasn't just about interesting lesson content.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes because we're differently disposed towards the formal schooling environment. If education becomes chiefly about maintaining order amongst angry adolescents, perhaps we're not doing it very well in the first place. It doesn't seem to me unreasonable for young people to be pissed off about being forced to spend a large part of their lives in an environment that they are not enjoying.

 

[theclaud]

Ahh! We are talking about structural change of the education system?, somewhere, the word “society” was mentioned (not saying by you), I thought a complete restructure of society was being suggested. 😊

Oh, it definitely is, but you only seem able to cope with a bit at a time.

 

[multitool]

If education becomes chiefly about maintaining order amongst angry adolescents

You are doing an Aurora again.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. With disorder there is no education which is precisely why some schools (you know, the ones with a breakdown of order and, surprise surprise, shít outcomes for students) are reshaping their school environments with clear boundaries over student comportment.

If you want to postulate some form of ideal education system where students are miraculously well-behaved because they are so heavily invested in the lesson content then go ahead, but just as with all your other entreaties for change you've actually got to define what the change is and how it would function, otherwise its of little value. It is one thing to describe a problem, it is another thing entirely to prescribe the solution.

In the meantime, within the constrained environment in which they operate, these schools are finding a solution.

I see that you are an advocate of 'edutainment', given your remark about students not enjoying school. There is a lot to unpack there, principally around creating an aspirational environment whereby the students are heavily invested in their own futures. But, I've got some cooking to do so it'll have to wait.

 

[BoldonLad]

Cooking, digging, burning the midnight oil?

Lack of commitment

 

[Rusty Nails]

Not quite sure how I got roped into this particular barney. I expect, on the basis of this thread, that MT and I would advocate differently structured educational systems, but that neither of them would involve maintaining a tier of elite institutions that enable wealthy people to buy their children advantages unavailable to others.

I suspect it would be impossible in a free (?) society to stop wealthy people buying their children (or themselves) advantages unavailable to others.

There is no excuse however, including the red herring/sop that scholarships benefit some ordinary families’ kids, for any tax breaks or other state subsidies to exist In any form.



P.S. The uniform debate is a distraction from the real problems within our education system..and it’s clearly working.

 

[icowden]

There is no excuse however, including the red herring/sop that scholarships benefit some ordinary families’ kids, for any tax breaks or other state subsidies to exist In any form.

So the rich should have more of an advantage over the poor who should lose out?
Odd set of priorities you have.

 

[multitool]

P.S. The uniform debate is a distraction from the real problems within our education system..and it’s clearly working.

Yes and no to that one.

There are huge intractable issues with the educational landscape in the UK. The uniform situation isn't aiming to solve them in one go, it's aiming to ameliorate one of the problems that exists in the system as it is (behaviour and self-respect)

 

[C R]

Yes and no to that one.

There are huge intractable issues with the educational landscape in the UK. The uniform situation isn't aiming to solve them in one go, it's aiming to ameliorate one of the problems that exists in the system as it is (behaviour and self-respect)

BULL SHIÏTE

There's enough empirical evidence from our European neighbours to prove that not wearing a uniform doesn't cause bad behaviour or lack of self respect.

Strict uniform rules just cause a set of conflicts that wouldn't exist otherwise.

 

[multitool]

BULL SHIÏTE

There's enough empirical evidence from our European neighbours to prove that not wearing a uniform doesn't cause bad behaviour or lack of self respect.

Where to begin with such a brain dead simplistic attempt at comparison.

Your point would only be true IF ALL OTHER FACTORS WERE EQUAL. Which, clearly, they are not.

Come on, CR. This is basic stuff.

Strict uniform rules just cause a set of conflicts that wouldn't exist otherwise.

On the contrary. Strict rules remove the conflict entirely. What causes conflict is rules that are vague, allow wiggle-room, or are not uniformly (pun intended) applied within the institution.

Again, come on, CR, this is basic stuff. For those of us with kids we know consistency is vital.

 

[Rusty Nails]

So the rich should have more of an advantage over the poor who should lose out?
Odd set of priorities you have.

You must know the definition of sop.

 

[multitool]

And by the way, @C R....

Lol

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-schools-trial-uniforms-to-tackle-poor-behaviour-pthgk622b

 

[Rusty Nails]

BULL SHIÏTE

There's enough empirical evidence from our European neighbours to prove that not wearing a uniform doesn't cause bad behaviour or lack of self respect.

Strict uniform rules just cause a set of conflicts that wouldn't exist otherwise.

Both systems cause conflicts.

Neither system is one of the most important issues in our children’s education.