Spin Time

[monkers]

Around 30% of the total tax gathered is from the top 1% of earners.

If you piss them off, revenue can dramatically fall very quickly.

Oh no, not more Laffer's curve bollocks.

 

[C R]

Oh no, not more Laffer's curve bollocks.

Troll one likes watersports. Every time taxation comes up he ends taking about trickle down of some sort.

 

[Ian H]

You mostly pay tax if you're an employee on PAYE. Loads of wealthy folk are not in that category and pay far less.
Our recent research shows there’s a lot of variation in the taxes paid by the rich. Most of the revenue from the top one per cent comes from a cohort of high-earning employees, who pay the often-quoted top rate of 45 per cent income tax plus two per cent national insurance contributions, with minimal deductions or reliefs. But a substantial minority pay much lower rates, especially taking into account capital gains, which offer an alternative way of taking rewards, mainly for the richest.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/how-much-tax-do-the-rich-really-pay

 

[C R]

You mostly pay tax if you're an employee on PAYE. Loads of wealthy folk are not in that category and pay far less.
Our recent research shows there’s a lot of variation in the taxes paid by the rich. Most of the revenue from the top one per cent comes from a cohort of high-earning employees, who pay the often-quoted top rate of 45 per cent income tax plus two per cent national insurance contributions, with minimal deductions or reliefs. But a substantial minority pay much lower rates, especially taking into account capital gains, which offer an alternative way of taking rewards, mainly for the richest.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/how-much-tax-do-the-rich-really-pay

Facts, we've heard of them but we generally don't like them.

 

[Stevo 666]

Did I say they didn't?

I must have misunderstood you. Glad we agree then.

 

[Stevo 666]

No it wasn't any kind of diatribe. Neither did I describe capitalism as an evil. I've noticed how the ultra-right swing heavily to hyperbole when truths are mentioned that they want hushed. I am not against trade or profit making. I'm against poverty especially in societies where money is aplenty. I'm also very much against liars.

There is great inequity in the UK leading to poverty including child poverty and pensioner poverty. If that tax gap of £36bn was eliminated then the money would be there to ensure that everybody can afford to eat.

You provided the data that shows this.

There will always be a tax gap, no country has ever eliminated it. If it was feasible, it would have been done by now somewhere.

But there are limits as to how much tax can be raised - ever heard of the Laffer Curve? The simplistic 'just tax them more' ignores the human reaction to tax rises, especially when those paying see them as too much. Especially when those who are targeted are mobile and/or their capital is mobile. Labour are currently finding these things out, for example with the exodus of many wealthy taxpayers and non-domsamd with the impact of their employers NI hike on jobs.

 

[monkers]

There will always be a tax gap, no country has ever eliminated it. If it was feasible, it would have been done by now somewhere.

But there are limits as to how much tax can be raised - ever heard of the Laffer Curve? The simplistic 'just tax them more' ignores the human reaction to tax rises, especially when those paying see them as too much. Especially when those who are targeted are mobile and/or their capital is mobile. Labour are currently finding these things out, for example with the exodus of many wealthy taxpayers and non-domsamd with the impact of their employers NI hike on jobs.

See post 166 ^^^

The fact remains that the billionaires are in charge. They effectively decide how much tax they are willing to pay, which in percentage terms isn't very much.

No billionaire is made poor by taking a £100million off them.

Tax was only one point made in my post. I invited you to consider the evidence provided by OXFAM that shows how much money leaves the country through offshoring.

Yes, I know there is now some requirements around declaration, what does that achieve? The fact that we know more about where it's going is not stemming the loss.

The rather obvious point is that the UK economy, like other economies, is open. The scale of the available wealth is what the BofE decide is needed in circulation. Offshoring means that money leaves circulation, making money short. Replacing it ultimately comes from taxing labour, so the billionaires get to take the money without paying a fair amount of tax. The taxpayer not only has to make up that tax gap shortfall, but then pay so that money can be added to circulation. Then those billionaires return money as 'investments' gain tax relief on that while charging interest.

The Tories even sold the Inland Revenue HQ building to an offshore company that operates hedge funds. They don't pay UK tax. You couldn't make it up.

It needs to stop.

 

[Pblakeney]

You mostly pay tax if you're an employee on PAYE. Loads of wealthy folk are not in that category and pay far less.
Our recent research shows there’s a lot of variation in the taxes paid by the rich. Most of the revenue from the top one per cent comes from a cohort of high-earning employees, who pay the often-quoted top rate of 45 per cent income tax plus two per cent national insurance contributions, with minimal deductions or reliefs. But a substantial minority pay much lower rates, especially taking into account capital gains, which offer an alternative way of taking rewards, mainly for the richest.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/how-much-tax-do-the-rich-really-pay

If a rich person finds themselves paying "their share" they would be looking for another accountant.

 

[Stevo 666]

Around 30% of the total tax gathered is from the top 1% of earners.

If you piss them off, revenue can dramatically fall very quickly.

True. A lot of the highest earners are internationally mobile so the risk is that they go and we get no tax from them. As Labour are currently discovering.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

non-doms

Will see miss them when they're gone?

 

[monkers]

If a rich person finds themselves paying "their share" they would be looking for another accountant.

The saying is that when a billionaire pays more tax than their chauffeur, they find a new accountant.

 

[monkers]

Will see miss them when they're gone?

I'll help them pack. (Caroline Lucas)

 

[Ian H]

True. A lot of the highest earners are internationally mobile so the risk is that they go and we get no tax from them. As Labour are currently discovering.

They're mostly the ones who don't pay much tax - see LSE link above.

 

[Stevo 666]

See post 166 ^^^

The fact remains that the billionaires are in charge. They effectively decide how much tax they are willing to pay, which in percentage terms isn't very much.

No billionaire is made poor by taking a £100million off them.

Tax was only one point made in my post. I invited you to consider the evidence provided by OXFAM that shows how much money leaves the country through offshoring.

Yes, I know there is now some requirements around declaration, what does that achieve? The fact that we know more about where it's going is not stemming the loss.

The rather obvious point is that the UK economy, like other economies, is open. The scale of the available wealth is what the BofE decide is needed in circulation. Offshoring means that money leaves circulation, making money short. Replacing it ultimately comes from taxing labour, so the billionaires get to take the money without paying a fair amount of tax. The taxpayer not only has to make up that tax gap shortfall, but then pay so that money can be added to circulation. Then those billionaires return money as 'investments' gain tax relief on that while charging interest.

The Tories even sold the Inland Revenue HQ building to an offshore company that operates hedge funds. They don't pay UK tax. You couldn't make it up.

It needs to stop.

But countries can make themselves poorer by trying to extract ever increasing amounts of tax from the wealthiest who can afford do go elsewhere. Its surprising how many people don't get this.

There is also the point about jurisdiction. A lot of the businesses that wealthy taxpayers own are not even in the UK. So why should those businesses pay UK tax?

And also businesses and entrepreneurs are free to invest where they want. If the UK is not attractive enough as a place to imvest, they won't do it. One of the relevant factors is tax. Tax them too much, and you don't get the investment and business activity needed.

 

[Stevo 666]

Will see miss them when they're gone?

We'll miss the tax that they pay.