Starmer's vision quest

[newfhouse]

You know how bad just voting for "the least worse option" sounds?

I do but I don’t see a viable alternative being available in the next couple of years. This makes me sad.

Surely we should be aiming higher

Yes, but hitting the outer of the target is better than insisting that only bullseyes count.

 

[theclaud]

So, with two-thirds of the public and even half of Tory voters wanting energy nationalised, this is the real, actual, centre ground of UK politics right now - y'know, not the mythical centre ground in Nuneaton. So that's what so-called 'centrists' should be advocating, right, @Rusty Nails?

 

[Deleted member 49]

I do but I don’t see a viable alternative being available in the next couple of years. This makes me sad.


Yes, but hitting the outer of the target is better than insisting that only bullseyes count.

Get rid of him and get someone who's prepared to aim higher...feck this settling for scraps.

 

[winjim]

Get rid of him and get someone who's prepared to aim higher...feck this settling for scraps.

A Labour party leadership challenge means Truss (or Sunak) calls a general election. That's five more years of Tories at least rather than potentially two as it stands.

 

[newfhouse]

feck this settling for scraps.

It’s not settling but it is the only available option I can see in the short term.

 

[newfhouse]

half of Tory voters wanting energy nationalised

I don’t believe most have more than a price related and temporary attachment to social ownership. They are likely the same people that can be persuaded that cutting essential public services will reduce their tax burden.

 

[theclaud]

I don’t believe most have more than a price related and temporary attachment to social ownership. They are likely the same people that can be persuaded that cutting essential public services will reduce their tax burden.

Respectfully disagree. It's not only Tory voters that have bought into austerity myths, and it's not only anything-but-Tory voters who need heating. Remember that a substantial number of 2019 Tory voters had voted Labour until that election.

 

[newfhouse]

Respectfully disagree. It's not only Tory voters that have bought into austerity myths, and it's not only anything-but-Tory voters who need heating. Remember that a substantial number of 2019 Tory voters had voted Labour until that election.

Perhaps you have a more charitable view of some voters than I do. I’m grumpy and disheartened right now, seeing many that are fickle, easily bought, and even more easily distracted.

Many that always voted Labour for historic, family and cultural reasons won’t be returning as a reliable base vote. The same goes for the equivalent among Tory supporters. Once the habit is broken pretty much every election in every constituency is up for grabs. It’s an opportunity for both sides but one that it seems the mass media owning Conservatives are better able to take.

 

[theclaud]

Perhaps you have a more charitable view of some voters than I do. I’m grumpy and disheartened right now, seeing many that are fickle, easily bought, and even more easily distracted.

Many that always voted Labour for historic, family and cultural reasons won’t be returning as a reliable base vote. The same goes for the equivalent among Tory supporters. Once the habit is broken pretty much every election in every constituency is up for grabs. It’s an opportunity for both sides but one that it seems the mass media owning Conservatives are better able to take.

It's not about being charitable - it's about common social and economic interest and making that more salient than culture war bollocks. People have to have a reason to 'return', or to vote at all in the first place. It's relatively easy to give them a reason by offering something that millions of them, across all sorts of political divides, want and regard as an urgent priority.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Perhaps you have a more charitable view of some voters than I do. I’m grumpy and disheartened right now, seeing many that are fickle, easily bought, and even more easily distracted.

So if as you say there easily bought,distracted what are Labour actually offering to tempt these voters ?
It seems like the vast majority on here. are quite happy to sit back and hope they win without offering anything other than "not being the Tories" Nah...not for me.
We're getting to a point where things are going to be unaffordable for many and what's Labours grand idea...not much better than the Tories.

 

[newfhouse]

It's not about being charitable - it's about common social and economic interest and making that more salient than culture war bollocks. People have to have a reason to 'return', or to vote at all in the first place. It's relatively easy to give them a reason by offering something that millions of them, across all sorts of political divides, want and regard as an urgent priority.

I suppose what worries me is that many don’t want public ownership because it’s the right way to proceed but because of a transient self interest. Once they can manage their bills those same people could be persuaded to make a few quid via a future privatisation.

So if as you say there easily bought,distracted what are Labour actually offering to tempt these voters ?

I think Labour should support nationalisation, (a) because it is right and (b) because it is currently a popular policy. I can only imagine Starmer’s worry is that if he agrees to it then whatever deal he thinks he has with the media barons will come to an end.

It seems like the vast majority on here. are quite happy to sit back and hope they win without offering anything other than "not being the Tories" Nah...not for me.

Is that true? Of those that want the Tories out I don’t think any have said that they are quite happy. Least worst is never a ringing endorsement.

We're getting to a point where things are going to be unaffordable for many and what's Labours grand idea...not much better than the Tories.

True, but being in government having at least the means to be much better is surely preferable to being in opposition with no power at all to stop the Tory destruction of the country.

 

[FishFright]

Probably those employed there

The companies that supply wetherspoons with food

The companies that supply wetherspoons with alcohol

The companies that supply wetherspoons with non alcoholic drinks

The companies that supply wetherspoons with decorating services

The companies that supply wetherspoons with furniture

Those who clean the pubs etc.

The architects who draw plans for the pub conversions

Those in building trade who do the conversions

There is always a supply chain that are affected by a business going under.


Rather a worrying lack of economics on display

All that is cancelled out by going to pub that's not owned by brexit loony

 

[Deleted member 49]

think Labour should support nationalisation, (a) because it is right and (b) because it is currently a popular policy. I can only imagine Starmer’s worry is that if he agrees to it then whatever deal he thinks he has with the media barons will come to an end.

He stood for the leadership on ten pledges....all of them gone back on.Deal with the media barons ffs

True, but being in government having at least the means to be much better is surely preferable to being in opposition with no power at all to stop the Tory destruction of the country.

There not in goverment...and I know you keep saying that and maybe it's the right thing to do,but I wont.I was at the picket line last week,mail strike and there's very little positive vibes about Labour at the moment.I think that's a massive mistake also not fully supporting the strikers.Your average bloke on the street doesn't really know what Labour are.What the feck is he so scared of !

View: https://twitter.com/CarlSurvation/status/1564624527983779840?t=B82nLKwPp8igpkDdFC85-A&s=19

 

[AuroraSaab]

All that is cancelled out by going to pub that's not owned by brexit loony

They employ 35k plus staff. Beer is £1.50 and a can of pop is £1.20. A meal with a drink starts at £4.60. Saying people should just eat elsewhere is a bit 'let them eat cake' imo. Many people aren't in a position to just decide to forgo a family meal at Wetherspoons for £20 and spend £50 in a Greene King instead.

 

[FishFright]

They employ 35k plus staff. Beer is £1.50 and a can of pop is £1.20. A meal with a drink starts at £4.60. Saying people should just eat elsewhere is a bit 'let them eat cake' imo. Many people aren't in a position to just decide to forgo a family meal at Wetherspoons for £20 and spend £50 in a Greene King instead.

Wetherspoons is never the only choice whatever your income level.