Sturgeon resigns

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glasgowcyclist

Über Member
I wouldn’t I’d let them have a referendum every 10 years.

The phrase ‘one last referendum’ gave a completely different impression.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
Asking Westminster for a referendum as a means of securing independence is no longer a viable, workable route - why do you think Nicola Sturgeon has bailed & her replacement is a choice between such hopelessly useless, toxic little candidates?
It has nothing to do with that. Sturgeon bailed when they opened the investigation into her husband's funding of the SNP.
 
D

Deleted member 28

Guest
They won't grant a referendum regardless of what Scotland, its government or its people do. You may not have noticed but the current Westminster government blithely passes legislation in breach of international laws and human rights. An incoming Labour government believes in order to get elected it needs to be as bad, if not worse than the one it wishes to supplant. Their attiude to Scotland is to treat it like Spain treated Catalonia (I think it was Lisa Nandy who proposed that), and civil disobedience and demonstrations (although pro Indy organisations regularly hold large-scale city-centre marches & rallies) would be a red rag.

There has already been talk of 're-drafting' the Act Of Union to mean it cannot ever be dissolved, and even rumblings about revoking devolution. The current Tory government, with its 80-seat majority would nod that through in an afternoon, likely with significant Labour support.

Asking Westminster for a referendum as a means of securing independence is no longer a viable, workable route - why do you think Nicola Sturgeon has bailed & her replacement is a choice between such hopelessly useless, toxic little candidates?



Yes - exactly that. They won't allow a referendum they might - probably would - lose.

Let's see what happens when (apparently) Labour get in, I'm sure you'll be granted another referendum.

Might shut you up for a bit.
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
Let's see what happens when (apparently) Labour get in, I'm sure you'll be granted another referendum.

Might shut you up for a bit.

The only way that would happen is if Sir is lying about not doing an election deal with the SNP. Which is eminently probable as he objectively lies far more often than he tells the truth, just like any other Tory.
 
D

Deleted member 121

Guest
Well, if they didn't say that they thought that, they wouldn't be running for leader of a party whose key mission is Scottish independence, would they? As @Xipe Totec said. It's meaningless rowlocks.

It would be like asking a Labour leader if they supported Unions or a Conservative Leader if they were going to cut taxes.

Of course not, and i don't dispute party key policies here only reporting on what was said. I am disputing the completely mind boggling bullshit political language. It is no wonder that politics has alienated so many people today.
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
Why don't the SNP just declare UDI if independence is what they want??

Catalonia held a referendum without Spanish consent, and declared UDI.

Labour have said Catalonia shows how the Scottish independence movement should be 'dealt with'.

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Following the Catalan declaration of UDI, Spain dismissed Catalonia's government, closed down its parliament and assumed direct rule. The legitimately elected former Catalan government was charged with sedition and crimes against the state, & members fled into exile or were arrested, while the Spanish authorities 'dealt with' demonstrating independence supporters as seen above.

While Scotland & Catalonia aren't directly comparable in many ways, it's entirely reasonable to assume the UK's government would view any UDI declaration the same way Spain's did - it would not be recognised, would be deemed illegal and the Scottish government which enacted it would be removed and charged with crimes against the state.

Holyrood has always been clear that independence requires an indisputable popular mandate, hence the push for a referendum. Successive resounding electoral victories are always countered with the claim that SNP voters don't all want independence and have other (presumably secret) reasons for electing them.

While that's probably broadly untrue, it's the flaw in ideas like using a Scottish parliament election or GE as a de-facto referendum - it's too easy to game with tactical voting by other parties, or by voters who oppose it simply staying away & a low turnout rendering any result blatantly unrepresentative.

Of course the UK government would, as they have repeatedly said, refuse to recognise any pro-independence result regardless of support, and so would deal with any subsequent UDI declaration as above.
 
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Rusty Nails

Country Member
Forgetting for a moment the fanciful imagery of what could happen here if the Scots declared UDI, it does appear that all is not well in the SNP at the moment with the 30% fall in membership numbers over two years.

Is this down to poor stewardship by the party, a slowing down of enthusiasm, cost of living issues, or a combination of them all even at a time when we have had 13 years of an awful Tory government ruining everything it touches? Whatever it is it doesn't augur well for rapid progress towards independence.
 
D

Deleted member 121

Guest
Catalonia held a referendum without Spanish consent, and declared UDI.

Labour have said Catalonia shows how the Scottish independence movement should be 'dealt with'.

View attachment 3350

View attachment 3351

View attachment 3352

Following the Catalan declaration of UDI, Spain dismissed Catalonia's government, closed down its parliament and assumed direct rule. The legitimately elected former Catalan government was charged with sedition and crimes against the state, & members fled into exile or were arrested, while the Spanish authorities 'dealt with' demonstrating independence supporters as seen above.

While Scotland & Catalonia aren't directly comparable in many ways, it's entirely reasonable to assume the UK's government would view any UDI declaration the same way Spain's did - it would not be recognised, would be deemed illegal and the Scottish government which enacted it would be removed and charged with crimes against the state.

Holyrood has always been clear that independence requires an indisputable popular mandate, hence the push for a referendum. Successive resounding electoral victories are always countered with the claim that SNP voters don't all want independence and have other (presumably secret) reasons for electing them.

While that's probably broadly untrue, it's the flaw in ideas like using a Scottish parliament election or GE as a de-facto referendum - it's too easy to game with tactical voting by other parties, or by voters who oppose it simply staying away & a low turnout rendering any result blatantly unrepresentative.

Of course the UK government would, as they have repeatedly said, refuse to recognise any pro-independence result regardless of support, and so would deal with any subsequent UDI declaration as above.

Alternatively, these could be scenes about an hour after everyone from this forum went for a pint and a chat...
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
Forgetting for a moment the fanciful imagery of what could happen here if the Scots declared UDI, it does appear that all is not well in the SNP at the moment with the 30% fall in membership numbers over two years.

Is this down to poor stewardship by the party, a slowing down of enthusiasm, cost of living issues, or a combination of them all even at a time when we have had 13 years of an awful Tory government ruining everything it touches? Whatever it is it doesn't augur well for rapid progress towards independence.

Probably all three - the less attainable independence becomes, the less point there is in being a member of a party which exists to achieve it. In fairness though the membership per capita in Scotland still appears to be significantly higher than the comparable UK-wide stats for the Tory & Labour parties.

As ever, the ballot box is the real measure of a party's success, and the majority of polls still indicate the SNP would equal or exceed the support it typically receives.

Sadly there is no route for 'progress towards independence', rapid or otherwise.
 
Catalonia held a referendum without Spanish consent, and declared UDI.

Labour have said Catalonia shows how the Scottish independence movement should be 'dealt with'.

View attachment 3350

View attachment 3351

View attachment 3352

Following the Catalan declaration of UDI, Spain dismissed Catalonia's government, closed down its parliament and assumed direct rule. The legitimately elected former Catalan government was charged with sedition and crimes against the state, & members fled into exile or were arrested, while the Spanish authorities 'dealt with' demonstrating independence supporters as seen above.

While Scotland & Catalonia aren't directly comparable in many ways, it's entirely reasonable to assume the UK's government would view any UDI declaration the same way Spain's did - it would not be recognised, would be deemed illegal and the Scottish government which enacted it would be removed and charged with crimes against the state.

Holyrood has always been clear that independence requires an indisputable popular mandate, hence the push for a referendum. Successive resounding electoral victories are always countered with the claim that SNP voters don't all want independence and have other (presumably secret) reasons for electing them.

While that's probably broadly untrue, it's the flaw in ideas like using a Scottish parliament election or GE as a de-facto referendum - it's too easy to game with tactical voting by other parties, or by voters who oppose it simply staying away & a low turnout rendering any result blatantly unrepresentative.

Of course the UK government would, as they have repeatedly said, refuse to recognise any pro-independence result regardless of support, and so would deal with any subsequent UDI declaration as above.

There is a difference between Catalonia and Scotland.

The Spanish Constitution specifically bans any area of Spain from declaring independence. There is no such thing in the UK 'constitution.'
 
D

Deleted member 28

Guest
There is a difference between Catalonia and Scotland.

The Spanish Constitution specifically bans any area of Spain from declaring independence. There is no such thing in the UK 'constitution.'

Lets not spoil a good story though eh?
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
There is a difference between Catalonia and Scotland.

The Spanish Constitution specifically bans any area of Spain from declaring independence. There is no such thing in the UK 'constitution.'

Yes, that's why I said "Scotland and Catalonia aren't directly comparable in many ways".
 
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