The role of gender and words...

[slowmotion]

Well of course, it's obvious that our language affects our thinking.

We think using our language, yes?.

So our thoughts are bound to be affected by our language, the words we express ourselves with, in turn reflect our thoughts.

It barely needs stating surely



The nature, extent, and depth of peoples thoughts on a matter, are highly apparent from peoples spoken or written vocabulary, on here and elsewhere.

But all this social gendered language stuff is highly nuanced, and contextualised as Claude, and others say.

It's not straightforward, and for progress to be made, it requires a discussion to take place in good faith, and mutual trust.

So is there much likelihood, of a useful advancement of understanding, or awareness to be made on here??

Hmmn, despite being a generally optimistic sort, I wouldn't be massively hopeful on all that..

If you mangle words to such an extent that their usefulness for clear communication is degraded, it's counterproductive isn't it?

 

[FishFright]

If you mangle words to such an extent that their usefulness for clear communication is degraded, it's counterproductive isn't it?

But that's not happening so why worry ?

 

[qigong chimp]

"No female politician could adopt the persona of an overgrown schoolgirl and be indulged by her party, or the media, or the public."

 

[mudsticks]

If you mangle words to such an extent that their usefulness for clear communication is degraded, it's counterproductive isn't it?

I don't see how using gender neutral words when there is no need to gender a role is any kind of 'mangling'.

Everyone knows what an actor is.

Or a firefighter.

Or a nurse.

Or a postal worker.

The gender of the Individual people in these occupations can be indicated if necessary.

Gendering roles isn't necessary for understanding what is being done..

And traditional gendering of roles very often hinders social progress.

Gender stereotypes can be perpetuated and reinforced in our thoughts, through gendered language.

To challenging stereotypes, we have to challenge stereotypical language.

Not everyone welcomes that challenge though, tis true enough .

 

[mudsticks]

"No female politician could adopt the persona of an overgrown schoolgirl and be indulged by her party, or the media, or the public."

It used to p*ss me off at school, that 'us girls' were expected to be some kind of 'civilising influence' on the boys.

Great, handed another job, which we never applied for.

 

[Unkraut]

(only exception I can think of is midwife, which I don't recall ever having a male version ?).

When it came to post-natal follow up and the discussions over measles vaccination, my wife had a male midwife called Steve. He was very good too.

 

[icowden]

Gender stereotypes can be perpetuated and reinforced in our thoughts, through gendered language.
To challenging stereotypes, we have to challenge stereotypical language.

And it's often the little moments that make you think. I have been in conversation with my children (both now teenage girls) before now and been interrupted by "why are you referring to the Doctor as 'he' - they could be a 'she'". Of course, it's the fact that I am a man that makes me tend to say "he" rather than "she", but also the result of upbringing and familiarity.

I also used to experience the reverse when I worked as a medical secretary. I would, on occasion answer the phone, and someone would ask to speak to my Consultant's Secretary. I would say, "Yes, this is he" or "That's me". And some would still be confused and ask again, unable to immediately envision that a male voice could be the secretary and not a doctor. I also had a least one patient get quite a distance into explaining a problem before I could get a word in and say "I think you need to speak to Doctor X about that, let me put you through to her...".

One reason that I rather enjoy @themanwhohasitall and the inversion of female sterotypes (particularly the ones that seem to be culled from womens magazines / sites:

"I got a tiny testicle mist in my 'Be Handsome' advent calendar today. Testicle mist means I can run, dance and sit down with total confidence." Dan, male engineer

 

[Deleted member 28]

The issue is that on the whole, such people appear to be incapable of entertaining the remotest hint of a possibility that they might be wrong.

So it's 'wrong' to refer to a role as Gendered?
Fireman, Postman etc surely isn't offensive if you're a Man is it?

 

[Cirrus]

It's all a load of Fanny/Bollocks*

* delete as appropriate

 

[mudsticks]

And it's often the little moments that make you think. I have been in conversation with my children (both now teenage girls) before now and been interrupted by "why are you referring to the Doctor as 'he' - they could be a 'she'". Of course, it's the fact that I am a man that makes me tend to say "he" rather than "she", but also the result of upbringing and familiarity.

I also used to experience the reverse when I worked as a medical secretary. I would, on occasion answer the phone, and someone would ask to speak to my Consultant's Secretary. I would say, "Yes, this is he" or "That's me". And some would still be confused and ask again, unable to immediately envision that a male voice could be the secretary and not a doctor. I also had a least one patient get quite a distance into explaining a problem before I could get a word in and say "I think you need to speak to Doctor X about that, let me put you through to her...".

One reason that I rather enjoy @themanwhohasitall and the inversion of female sterotypes (particularly the ones that seem to be culled from womens magazines / sites:

Yup well change comes slowly, even among those who can see the need.

And as we can see, not everyone even sees the need for change.

Many people have grown up never questioning gender stereotyping language, and even gone along with it quite happily.

Once you see how much it pervades all our lives, and affects our thinking it's hard to unsee it though.

But of course in many cases if you point it out you're making an unnecessary fuss.

"What's the problem" ??

If you try to explain the problem, then you're just "going on".

This has been going on for a long time, but the younger generation do seem to pick up on it pretty quick nowadays.

I'm not sure your assumptions about the Dr being a man is so much to do with being a man, as you say it happens if you grow up in a sexist society and don't question that.

My grown up children - both male will even pick me up on stuff nowadays.

Which is both hilarious - and heartening .

Anyway, better get back to the xmas veg harvest.
And other stuff.

 

[winjim]

So it's 'wrong' to refer to a role as Gendered?
Fireman, Postman etc surely isn't offensive if you're a Man is it?

I think it's considered disrespectful to the service as a whole. I guess in a profession where people are so reliant on each other potentially going into harm's way they need to be sure they are all equal and working as a unit. The fire brigade do periodically issue corrections via twitter.


View: https://twitter.com/LondonFire/status/1101588536187330564?t=21l20B_XRR68NoOOwBviPA&s=19


And for an illustration of why it matters, have a read through this thread. A little girl thought she couldn't grow up to be a fireman. West Midlands Fire Service responded and then fire services from around the world started posting pictures and videos of their female firefighters to let her see that she could be one too.


View: https://twitter.com/WestMidsFire/status/1086247022229807104?t=2h_jLjRSPyq3YQae5vM8Hw&s=19



Four years old. This stuff starts early.

 

[Julia9054]

And it's often the little moments that make you think. I have been in conversation with my children (both now teenage girls) before now and been interrupted by "why are you referring to the Doctor as 'he' - they could be a 'she'". Of course, it's the fact that I am a man that makes me tend to say "he" rather than "she", but also the result of upbringing and familiarity.

Depressingly only 3 years ago I am sitting at my table on parents evening waiting for my appointments to arrive. A mother with a printed out list dragging her 15 year old son around says “Dr Smith next - is that a man or a woman?
Son rolls his eyes and replies replies - “A man obviously - it says doctor, doesn’t it”

 

[theclaud]

Yup well change comes slowly, even among those who can see the need.

And as we can see, not everyone even sees the need for change.

Many people have grown up never questioning gender stereotyping language, and even gone along with it quite happily.

Once you see how much it pervades all our lives, and affects our thinking it's hard to unsee it though.

But of course in many cases if you point it out you're making an unnecessary fuss.

"What's the problem" ??

If you try to explain the problem, then you're just "going on".

This has been going on for a long time, but the younger generation do seem to pick up on it pretty quick nowadays.

I'm not sure your assumptions about the Dr being a man is so much to do with being a man, as you say it happens if you grow up in a sexist society and don't question that.

My grown up children - both male will even pick me up on stuff nowadays.

Which is both hilarious - and heartening .

Anyway, better get back to the xmas veg harvest.
And other stuff.

View attachment 397

Ooooh January King!

 

[newfhouse]

Ooooh January King!

January Monarch.

 

[swansonj]

Do they?

What makes you think people deny anything, have you ever considered some might think it's ridiculous?

So help me to get this straight. You accept (as in, you do not deny) that the language we use affects the way we think, that gendered language reinforces gendered assumptions and prejudices, that gendered assumptions limit people's aspirations and stop them from having as fulfilled lives as they might otherwise do - but you think it is ridiculous to be concerned about this?