The role of gender and words...

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D

Deleted member 28

Guest
So help me to get this straight. You accept (as in, you do not deny) that the language we use affects the way we think, that gendered language reinforces gendered assumptions and prejudices, that gendered assumptions limit people's aspirations and stop them from having as fulfilled lives as they might otherwise do - but you think it is ridiculous to be concerned about this?
You'll be telling me next that the changes to kid's sports day was a good thing, not having winners or losers, but just 'taking parter's'.
Anyway, I think not being able to call a Male Firefighter a Fireman IS ridiculous.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
I was born when “the old ways” were in force. But, as I have already said, I have no problem with changing to the “new ways”. I may slip up, at times, and use the “old” term, but, this is unintentional.

Is the general thought that all gendered terms will be dropped? Eg Son/daughter, niece/nephew, etc etc. in some cases, I can think of non-gendered replacements, but, niece/nephew, is one example which defeats me.
 
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mudsticks

Squire
Ooooh January King!

Yes , sooo beautiful, I've often fancied a dress in the same colourway..

Green silk taffeta with purple embroidery, perhaps.

If you're really lucky I'll put up some pictures of the shiny red cabbage (buscaro) I'm harvesting now.

Meanwhile I thought of you whilst 'Up The Gower' on a farm inspection t'other weekend.

That was very picturesque too :smile:

400



I was born when “the old ways” were in force. But, as I have already said, I have no problem with changing to the “new ways”. I may slip up, at times, and use the “old” term, but, this is unintentional.

Is the general thought that all gendered terms will be dropped? Eg Son/daughter, niece/nephew, etc etc. in some cases, I can think of non-gendered replacements, but, niece/nephew, is one example which defers me.

The 'old ways' still haven't gone away, as evidenced by some on this thread..

Afaik I don't think the 'general thought' is that gendered terms for individuals eg son daughter etc be dropped no.

Nor despite Shep's consternation is anyone going to be that bothered about John who identifies as he, being referred to as fireman John.

Who happens to works alongside (female identifying) firewoman Jill.

Or if we don't know them as individuals, we could just call them all firefighters, as a group, and celebrate their outstanding bravery whichever gender they be..

They really are all total heroes.
Not like the idiot using a 4xd as a weapon against another human being.

This is far more about gendered speech, about roles, which have no business being gendered.
That needs to be considered, and changed, if we're not still to have four year olds believing only men can be firefighters.

Or as in Julia's example that all Drs are men :wacko:

Sometimes it feels like we're sliding backwards, in terms of gender equality, but maybe it's just more in general discourse, in t'internet age..
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Sometimes it feels like we're sliding backwards, in terms of gender equality, but maybe it's just more in general discourse, in t'internet age..
As someone who has been around for a long time, I can see we are definitely moving, and have moved, forward, and that is causing a lot more discussion, and a lot more howls of outrage from those who cannot see why we just cannot stick with the old ways of doing things. The fact that there are a lot more audible howls of outrage shows that things are moving a lot faster than some like.

However, it is more tricky for the likes of us old timers who have had many more years of the "old ways" to move from. I have no problem at all with change to non-gendered role titles but like @BoldonLad I (and my wife) sometimes forget to not say things like Policeman when talking about and to male police officer friends and Policewoman when talking about my friend's daughter. I make no apologies at all for this, except possibly to said friend's daughter if she felt slighted at all and worry not about people being offended on her behalf.

It took me 20 years to stop thinking in £sd following decimalisation, but I got there in the end.
 

mudsticks

Squire
As someone who has been around for a long time, I can see we are definitely moving, and have moved, forward, and that is causing a lot more discussion, and a lot more howls of outrage from those who cannot see why we just cannot stick with the old ways of doing things. The fact that there are a lot more audible howls of outrage shows that things are moving a lot faster than some like.

However, it is more tricky for the likes of us old timers who have had many more years of the "old ways" to move from. I have no problem at all with change to non-gendered role titles but like @BoldonLad I (and my wife) sometimes forget to not say things like Policeman when talking about and to male police officer friends and Policewoman when talking about my friend's daughter. I make no apologies at all for this, except possibly to said friend's daughter if she felt slighted at all and worry not about people being offended on her behalf.

It took me 20 years to stop thinking in £sd following decimalisation, but I got there in the end.

Of course most of us are aware of all that, and that its not easy to change ingrained habits of speech.

But the fact that it's so ingrained also points up our unconscious assumptions, which also affects our thoughts and actions and vice versa.

As I meandered in an earlier post, it's not all about getting it right all the time, or making a point about it every time.

My son had a good phrase for that kind of exclusive 'point scoring' 'language gatekeepering' the other day..

The 'something something Citadel' I'll have to ask him what it was.


But anyway our task is surely about intention, understanding and awareness of the power of words for good or ill, and choosing them wisely

Not necessarily getting it 100% right every time..

I'm not exactly wet behind the ears not neither, and have shifted my language and thought over the years, it's an active choice we can make, if we want to.

Or we can stubbornly resist progress, and wist for some 'good old days' that never were...

Where "Men were 'proper' men, and women were just thankful* for it"

*OK so maybe they forgot to consult all - or even any of the women on this..But I'm sure they meant to right ?? :rolleyes:

I agree about the 'howls of outrage' it can be quite funny at times, boringly predictable at others... But like many other protestations at progress, it shows something is happening.

I've certainly noticed a change in my industry over the last thirty years or so..

Speaking of which>>>>>
 

mudsticks

Squire
Has this happened? That's brilliant.

Hopefully they can stop sports days altogether.

Yeah but if they got rid of it all together , the non sporty kids wouldn't have to come up with creative excuses for getting out of it ...

That was always a good challenge :whistle:
 

swansonj

Regular
If you merely focus on using the correct word - "I must say firefighter not fireman" - it is going to be hard work. But if you focus on changing your underlying thinking, so that you start thinking of firefighters as being equally able to be men or women, then the terminology "fireman" will start to feel alien and you will instinctively find yourself saying "firefighter" without having to think about it consciously, because that's the word that expresses what you are actually thinking.

That's the whole point about these discussion about gendered language, it's not the words themselves (be it "fireman" or "granny gear" ^_^) that matter, the words only matter because of the way our language both reveals and also influences our thinking.
 

Xipe Totec

Something nasty in the woodshed
So it's 'wrong' to refer to a role as Gendered?
Fireman, Postman etc surely isn't offensive if you're a Man is it?
That's more specific than what I meant. Most people pick up loads of different opinions & attitudes as they go through life, which sometimes end up being challenged. Some people respond by getting annoyed & rejecting the very idea they might be wrong about things that they've probably never given a second thought to.

Others react by having a think about their attitudes, how come they have them, & whether or not they're good/bad/appropriate/whatever. I do this all the time, and if I think I've been wrong about something, I'll change my thinking/behaviour etc.

As far as the examples you give are concerned, I don't suppose a male person would be offended by the titles, but they might consider the gendering was unnecessary to the role, and think that a gender-free title would be just as representative of their job, while being fairer all round.
 
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