The UK’s broken asylum system

[Rusty Nails]

I don't really agree with this on the same premise as, for example, Germany, Italy or Spain moving away from their fascist recent pasts without examining how and why such a descent became possible.

Brexit was the wrong diagnosis of and the wrong prescription for the nation's ills. The status quo was good for many, but not for some, but that inequality was baked into our institutions and systems in 2016 and remains so. Blaming it on membership of the EU was a misdiagnosis, and it needs examining. Equally, the vexed topic of migration needs open and informed discussion rather than leaving it to be the preserve of charlatan opportunists like Farage.

Idiots may gain relief from terse slogans like "we won/ you lost, get over it", but that relief is both imaginary and ephemeral.

It's very easy to blame social and economic decline on outsiders, but the truth is life in the EU offered economic stability. The real problems lie within the UK's own structures.

I must admit to being an "on balance" Remainer. I liked the idea of a close relationship with the EU, particulary in trade, travel, security and scientific cooperation etc, but wasn't enamoured with the power imbalance/dominance within it, my belief it was increasingly becoming another protectionist bloc, and the fact that there was as much if not greater support for racist/right wing political parties as in the UK. Added to that was the fact that we had always had an internal battle over membership exacerbated by De Gaulle's antipathy to our early attempts at joining, and had mostly been a semi-detached member of the EU. The furore over losing some travelling and residency rights after leaving always struck me as mostly first world, middle class pique at losing perks.

I voted Remain because I felt the trade and economic benefits outweighed the negatives, and I always had the hope that we could get a grown up government which could improve our relationship and influence the EU. Sadly we just got more of the Tories who not only wanted out of the EU but apparently wanted to have even less cooperation with them and treat them as our rivals.

Now that we are out I am not in any rush to rejoin because that would not resolve, but probably further inflame, the polarisation over our membership, and also because I believe we have to resolve our own self-inflicted problems, probably at the same time as developing a new, closer relationship with the EU as allies, friends and partners, if not members of the same club. I suspect that over the years the EU will develop into a looser, less structured organisation of cooperating countries.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My sentiments exactly. Hope you are wrong about the rejoining, but, I suspect you are right.

I think we'll rejoin eventually, in some form, though we might not term it rejoining. Probably 10 plus years off though. The EU might look different itself by then though, as Rusty says.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Yup - at least 10 years before we rejoin - and then probably in some as yet unknown form

And - I do agree that we do need to look back and see why things happened and whether it was done properly or not

but some people do seem to want to concentrate on doing this and concentrating on "this is soooo bad" rather than "OK we are here, the reasons is not important at the moment - but it is important to move forward from here and not moan about where we used to be"

In any case - the whole situation is different now - we can;t rewind the clock and put it all back as it was but some people on both sides seem to want to do just that!

 

[multitool]

Yup - at least 10 years before we rejoin - and then probably in some as yet unknown form

And - I do agree that we do need to look back and see why things happened and whether it was done properly or not

but some people do seem to want to concentrate on doing this and concentrating on "this is soooo bad" rather than "OK we are here, the reasons is not important at the moment - but it is important to move forward from here and not moan about where we used to be"

In any case - the whole situation is different now - we can;t rewind the clock and put it all back as it was but some people on both sides seem to want to do just that!

Up to a point Lord Copper.

The truth is Brexit is/was a failure to cone to terms with loss of Empire. That coming to terms has to happen or as a nation we will never be forward looking.

 

[Pale Rider]

The truth is Brexit is/was a failure to cone to terms with loss of Empire.

Rubbish.

No one alive has any practical experience of Empire, and it's only those who seem ashamed of our history who keep banging on about it.

It does give us a clue to the forum's future - in 50 years multifool's great grandson will be on here bleating about the Brexit vote.

 

[multitool]

Rubbish.

No one alive has any practical experience of Empire, and it's only those who seem ashamed of our history who keep banging on about it.

I don't even know where to start with the intellectual and historical vapidity of Pallid Rinder.

So maybe I won't bother.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

No one alive has any practical experience of Empire, and it's only those who seem ashamed of our history who keep banging on about it.

I reckon @Pale Rider is old enough to remember reading Gotcha on the front of his copy of the Sun.
Nothing related to empire obviously.

 

[multitool]

I reckon @Pale Rider is old enough to remember reading Gotcha on the front of his copy of the Sun.
Nothing related to empire obviously.

He might have read about the Windrush generation, heard of that thing called the Commonwealth, maybe heard about what happened in 1997 but who knows.

The funniest thing is that he doesn't understand the manifestations of "loss of empire" are often the things he spends his time railing about

 

[multitool]

I mean, one might even mention 44.7% of the Scots voting to free themselves from the Imperial yoke in 2014, or a violent insurgency against British colonial rule in Ireland that only ceased a few decades ago, but that would probably result in Pallid Rinder soiling himself.

 

[Pale Rider]

I don't even know where to start with the intellectual and historical vapidity of Pallid Rinder.

So maybe I won't bother.

No answer - as usual.

I reckon @Pale Rider is old enough to remember reading Gotcha on the front of his copy of the Sun.
Nothing related to empire obviously.

We were at war with Argentina after they invaded a Sovereign Territory - neither the Falklands or Argentina have anything to do with Empire.

By the way, the Gotcha! headline was removed from later editions after it became apparent many Argentinian seamen had died on the Belgrano, proving Sun sub-editors are all heart.

He might have read about the Windrush generation, heard of that thing called the Commonwealth, maybe heard about what happened in 1997 but who knows.

The funniest thing is that he doesn't understand the manifestations of "loss of empire" are often the things he spends his time railing about

The Commonwealth as a formal organisation to succeed the Empire has proved a huge success, countries are queuing to join it.

By the way, the daughter of a Windrush guy gave an interview.

She said her dad was brought over to work at London Transport, as many were.

He rose to become a tube driver - current pay in excess of a grand a week - and is now happily retired on his home island, enjoying what he describes as a generous pension.

The daughter is also now a tube driver, as far as she is concerned, Windrush was the best thing to happen to her family.

Still, you carry on moaning about everything, going round and round in ever decreasing circles before eventually disappearing up your own bottom.

 

[multitool]

LOL saying that nobody alive had any experience of empire then literally giving an example of one.

Comedy Gold

 

[Pale Rider]

LOL saying that nobody alive had any experience of empire then literally giving an example of one.

Comedy Gold

Surely, positive experiences don't count in your sad little world.

 

[multitool]

Surely, positive experiences don't count in your sad little world.

Now he's trying to reframe what he said and squeeze it into a bone-headed binary.

Schrodinger's Tube Driver. Exists at the same time as Not Existing.

 

[Pale Rider]

Now he's trying to reframe what he said and squeeze it into a bone-headed binary.

Schrodinger's Tube Driver. Exists at the same time as Not Existing.

You carry on moaning.

I take it you are moaning, because your last few posts have said, as is so often the case, nothing.

 

[multitool]

You carry on moaning.

I take it you are moaning, because your last few posts have said, as is so often the case, nothing.

Just as Berkeley asked whether a falling tree makes no sound if there is nobody around to hear it, Pallid wants us to think that if he fails to understand a sentence, then it must have no meaning.

Pallid. As thick as a tree trunk.