The UK’s broken asylum system

[Pale Rider]

Just as Berkeley asked whether a falling tree makes no sound if there is nobody around to hear it, Pallid wants us to think that if he fails to understand a sentence, then it must have no meaning.

Pallid. As thick as a tree trunk.

Nothing to say - other than insulting me - as usual.

Multifool - ignorant and stupid.

 

[multitool]

Nothing to say - other than insulting me - as usual.

Multifool - ignorant and stupid.

Let's go back to your first post of today, where you chose to reply to one of my posts...

It does give us a clue to the forum's future - in 50 years multifool's great grandson will be on here bleating about the Brexit vote.

So let's hear a bit more about what a victim you are

Or maybe rather than incessantly bore everyone with your abuse/victimhood cycle you could step away, and have a little go at understanding what other people are saying.

 

[BoldonLad]

I must admit to being an "on balance" Remainer. I liked the idea of a close relationship with the EU, particulary in trade, travel, security and scientific cooperation etc, but wasn't enamoured with the power imbalance/dominance within it, my belief it was increasingly becoming another protectionist bloc, and the fact that there was as much if not greater support for racist/right wing political parties as in the UK. Added to that was the fact that we had always had an internal battle over membership exacerbated by De Gaulle's antipathy to our early attempts at joining, and had mostly been a semi-detached member of the EU. The furore over losing some travelling and residency rights after leaving always struck me as mostly first world, middle class pique at losing perks.

I voted Remain because I felt the trade and economic benefits outweighed the negatives, and I always had the hope that we could get a grown up government which could improve our relationship and influence the EU. Sadly we just got more of the Tories who not only wanted out of the EU but apparently wanted to have even less cooperation with them and treat them as our rivals.

Now that we are out I am not in any rush to rejoin because that would not resolve, but probably further inflame, the polarisation over our membership, and also because I believe we have to resolve our own self-inflicted problems, probably at the same time as developing a new, closer relationship with the EU as allies, friends and partners, if not members of the same club. I suspect that over the years the EU will develop into a looser, less structured organisation of cooperating countries.

Almost exactly my reasons for voting "remain". I would add, that "Peace in Europe" in my lifetime was also a factor in my choice, and, I saw Economic cooperation/benefits as a factor in that highly desirable situation.

I am sure there will be many and varied PHDs based on why Brexit happened, but, in my opinion, we will never know the full story, because, the reasons why people voted "leave" were many and varied. Every one has their "pet" theory, from Racism to conned by the right-wing media, and various shades in-between. We will never know, for various reasons, not least of which is, people seldom admit to making a bad choice, and, honestly giving their reasons. The narrative is always adjusted to show themselves in the best possible light.

 

[Bromptonaut]

We were at war with Argentina after they invaded a Sovereign Territory - neither the Falklands or Argentina have anything to do with Empire.

IIRC it was a conflict rather than a war although I appreciate that difference is semantic.

How British ownership of a bunch of islands 8000 miles away has nothing to do with Empire seems to me to be nonsense on stilts.

@Pale Rider is, I think in broadly the same age group as I am. Primary school in the sixties with a map on the wall showing massive chunks of Africa in pink. Most of those were by then independent but only very recently so. Our Fathers could have spent National Service chasing the Mau Mau in Kenya, or like my partners maternal uncle, being shot at by Aeoka activists in Cyprus. My Mother, who died within the last 5 years, was born 20 years before the partition of British India and independence for India and Pakistan.

Southern Rhodesia was, UDI notwithstanding, UK territory until 1980.

Still quite a few bits and bobs still are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories

Another generation, born well into the seventies, still hang on to the myths of Empire.

They were the people who voted out in the numbers needed to get the result over the line. Friend of a friend in that cohort announced her vote was for 'our boys'. I asked (TIC) if she meant the rights of her grandsons to work and study in France.....

 

[multitool]

I am sure there will be many and varied PHDs based on why Brexit happened, but, in my opinion, we will never know the full story, because, the reasons why people voted "leave" were many and varied. Every one has their "pet" theory, from Racism to conned by the right-wing media, and various shades in-between. We will never know, for various reasons, not least of which is, people seldom admit to making a bad choice, and, honestly giving their reasons.

Interesting that you use the word "story", because of course that is what history is. An attempt to understand events in the light of knowledge often coming from different perspectives. History is not fact, and it isn't static because our understanding of events changes as contextual detail emerges.

It will be some time before we have enough distance from our imperial past to make sense of its influence, but it is pretty clear to me that there is a tension between those who want a reckoning with the nation's past ( BLM, Colston statue, Grenfell, Windrush etc) and those who want to remained steeped in myth around empire, and that Brexit occurred at this juncture.

Pallid's attempt to claim that very recent past has no bearing on the present is clearly risible. Especially as Pallid is exactly the sort of person who, given the opportunity (usually something to do with muslims) will bleat on about 'our Christian cultural heritage'

You are correct in that it is complex, often too complex to grasp, which is why the Pallids of the world are so eager to reach for easy binaries.

 

[Pale Rider]

IIRC it was a conflict rather than a war although I appreciate that difference is semantic.

How British ownership of a bunch of islands 8000 miles away has nothing to do with Empire seems to me to be nonsense on stilts.

@Pale Rider is, I think in broadly the same age group as I am. Primary school in the sixties with a map on the wall showing massive chunks of Africa in pink. Most of those were by then independent but only very recently so. Our Fathers could have spent National Service chasing the Mau Mau in Kenya, or like my partners maternal uncle, being shot at by Aeoka activists in Cyprus. My Mother, who died within the last 5 years, was born 20 years before the partition of British India and independence for India and Pakistan.

Southern Rhodesia was, UDI notwithstanding, UK territory until 1980.

Still quite a few bits and bobs still are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories

Another generation, born well into the seventies, still hang on to the myths of Empire.

They were the people who voted out in the numbers needed to get the result over the line. Friend of a friend in that cohort announced her vote was for 'our boys'. I asked (TIC) if she meant the rights of her grandsons to work and study in France.....

All a bit of a reach though, isn't it?

'My mother, our fathers, my partner's maternal uncle.'

What you are saying is the Empire finished at least the generation before the majority of those of us on here.

In terms of practical impact you have to go back even further to find people of adult age before or just after the Second World War.

I can't claim to have interrogated many elderly voters, but the notion they thought a leave vote was somehow a vote for a long gone Empire is not believable.

Remember, just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them stupid.

As regards the Falklands, I'm not sure how we ended up with it, but I don't think we took it by force and we certainly didn't subjugate the inhabitants, so it doesn't sound much like the big bad Empire to me.

Especially as Pallid is exactly the sort of person who, given the opportunity (usually something to do with muslims) will bleat on about 'our Christian cultural heritage

Utter crap, so let's have an example, not just a baseless assertion.

Come on fool, you are the one who follows my every post going back years, so it should be an easy task for you.

So let's hear a bit more about what a victim you are

More garbage, so let's have some proof of me claiming to be a victim.

By the way, what's happening in Trumpton, or haven't you made up the next instalment yet?

 

[multitool]

As usual Pallid can't even grapple with the most simple of concepts. It wasn't empire. It was "loss of empire".

As Bromptonaut said so eloquently, anybody educated up to the 80s, and arguably the early 90s, was socialised into the notion of glory of empire, regardless of whether most of the empire was gone. The cultural memory remains. The myth making remains. Even a cursory acquaintance with the military should demonstrate that they place a large part of their identity in empire.

Jeez. This is basic stuff. The rib about Christianity was obvious. Christ died two millenia ago. But here we are.

 

[Pale Rider]

As usual Pallid can't even grapple with the most simple of concepts. It wasn't empire. It was "loss of empire".

As Bromptonaut said so eloquently, anybody educated up to the 80s, and arguably the early 90s, was socialised into the notion of glory of empire, regardless of whether most of the empire was gone. The cultural memory remains. The myth making remains. Even a cursory acquaintance with the military should demonstrate that they place a large part of their identity in empire.

Jeez. This is basic stuff. The rib about Christianity was obvious. Christ died two millenia ago. But here we are.

It might seem that way to you, because all you do is look back and moan.

Those of us who look forward don't give the Empire much of a thought, because like everything else it fades further into history as each year passes.

Same as the Brexit vote, to read some of your posts on here (the very few that say anything other than insults) a casual reader would think the result was announced yesterday.

OK, my side won, but win or lose, I've long since moved on from it.

 

[newfhouse]

OK, my side won, but win or lose, I've long since moved on from it.

“Your side” still hasn’t cleaned your dirty protest off the walls.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I am sure there will be many and varied PHDs based on why Brexit happened, but, in my opinion, we will never know the full story, because, the reasons why people voted "leave" were many and varied. Every one has their "pet" theory, from Racism to conned by the right-wing media, and various shades in-between. We will never know, for various reasons, not least of which is, people seldom admit to making a bad choice, and, honestly giving their reasons. The narrative is always adjusted to show themselves in the best possible light.

If you want the real story there should be an referendum on staying in the eu in every member state every 4 years or so just like elections. If that where the case you will soon see the Eu would starting to work completely different because they will be accountable for their actions.(no they aren't now yes i known the structure, it is not my point they are accountable on paper it is my point they are not accountable in reality. )
But it isn't any attempts to get more transparency from the EU have lead to less transparency so the answer you are looking for is actually quite simple, people see a lot of money disappear into the EU but see not what benefits it brings them or if their money is wisely spend. And instead of improving the EU is making things even less transparent.

I

 

[multitool]

They are accountable. There are MEP elections. The leader is proposed by the heads of member states (then elected by the council).

 

[BoldonLad]

If you want the real story there should be an referendum on staying in the eu in every member state every 4 years or so just like elections. If that where the case you will soon see the Eu would starting to work completely different because they will be accountable for their actions.(no they aren't now yes i known the structure, it is not my point they are accountable on paper it is my point they are not accountable in reality. )
But it isn't any attempts to get more transparency from the EU have lead to less transparency so the answer you are looking for is actually quite simple, people see a lot of money disappear into the EU but see not what benefits it brings them or if their money is wisely spend. And instead of improving the EU is making things even less transparent.

I

I would have thought the member states may have learned the folly of referendums from our experience.

 

[Pale Rider]

They are accountable. There are MEP elections. The leader is proposed by the heads of member states (then elected by the council).

Thank goodness we are no longer involved in all that cobblers.

I would have thought the member states may have learned the folly of referendums from our experience.

The trouble with referendums from the politicians' point of view is they then have to do what the public tells them.

Almost worse than elections in that respect.

Despite being on the winning side of the last referendum, I'm still not keen on the ruddy things.

We elect representatives to make decisions.

Picking single issues to have a public vote on is invidious.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Thank goodness we are no longer involved in all that cobblers.



The trouble with referendums from the politicians' point of view is they then have to do what the public tells them.

Almost worse than elections in that respect.

Despite being on the winning side of the last referendum, I'm still not keen on the ruddy things.

We elect representatives to make decisions.

Picking single issues to have a public vote on is invidious.

A single issue with reasonably binary alterntives - as you are with FPTP v AV - can work.

We all knew what Remain looked like but nobody explained what Brexit meant in actual practical terms.

Folks bought the slogans not the reality.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

They are accountable. There are MEP elections. The leader is proposed by the heads of member states (then elected by the council).

Nonsense, look for example at Neelie Kroes who went to work for Uber after being very lenient on them when tasked with competition adn digital agenda in the eu. There are much more examples, but the bottom line is that that system you talk about simply doesn't work. it's like a already said an paperweight, voting mep doesn't really change anything.

I would have thought the member states may have learned the folly of referendums from our experience.

I don't say it's the ideal instrument but if you want a answer to the question how come the UK vote leave you forst have to known who else would have voted leave if they where given the choice.(which was the question where is was responding to)