The UK’s broken asylum system

[All uphill]

A lot of "our" and "we" there, you must know more about my family tree than I do, don't think I any of my ancestors went to Africa, or any other bit of Empire, or sailed on a slave ship.

My Grandfather was born in USA, but, that was after they had kicked out the UK, and, he did come back to UK to live out the rest of his life.

I occasionally talk about british history with friends and reflect that "our" and "we" are the terms usually used. Maybe that's to clarify whether we are referring to the British army in contrast to the French Army, for example, but still revealing.

 

[Rusty Nails]

A lot of "our" and "we" there, you must know more about my family tree than I do, don't think I any of my ancestors went to Africa, or any other bit of Empire, or sailed on a slave ship.

My Grandfather was born in USA, but, that was after they had kicked out the UK, and, he did come back to UK to live out the rest of his life.

You really ought to make your mind up. You have often referred to 'our and 'we' when referring to people of the UK...or were you implying they were part of the family tree?

Do we sell bridges overseas? We used to, but, I am not aware of any surviving companies doing so, so much for that publicity. We do still have Architects / Structural Engineers exporting their skills in this area.

This should be our ambition, then, they can help our economy, pay some taxes to fund our public services, etc etc win-win

Consistency is important when trying to appear so reasonable.

 

[newfhouse]

A lot of "our" and "we" there, you must know more about my family tree than I do, don't think I any of my ancestors went to Africa, or any other bit of Empire, or sailed on a slave ship.

You might be surprised at the sorts of people that invested in and benefitted from slavery. This is a fascinating programme by David Olusoga that I hope you will agree is worth an hour of your time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b062nqpd/britains-forgotten-slave-owners-1-profit-and-loss

My Grandfather was born in USA, but, that was after they had kicked out the UK, and, he did come back to UK to live out the rest of his life.

Was he an indigenous American or a descendant of those that stole a whole continent?

 

[BoldonLad]

You really ought to make your mind up. You have often referred to 'our and 'we' when referring to people of the UK...or were you implying they were part of the family tree?





Consistency is important when trying to appear so reasonable.

Nothing inconsistent there. Public Services are used by everyone. My point was, that neither I, nor, any of my ancestors were slave owners, plantation owners, slave traders etc. As far as I can tell, my ancestors were Coal Miners, or, Agricultural Workers. I am from a long line of peasnats.

I cannot speak for the rest of you.

 

[BoldonLad]

You might be surprised at the sorts of people that invested in and benefitted from slavery. This is a fascinating programme by David Olusoga that I hope you will agree is worth an hour of your time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b062nqpd/britains-forgotten-slave-owners-1-profit-and-loss


Was he an indigenous American or a descendant of those that stole a whole continent?

Nether. His mother and father emigrated to America. He was born there, his father then died, in an accident there, grandfather returned, still a child, with his mother.

I have watched that program, also, I recall a few other ancestry type programs where some surprising "celebrities" families were slave owners.

All of this "responsibility" for what previous generations did strikes my as being a bit "religious" to me, "sins of the fathers" and all that. I am amazed that the many non-believers buy into it.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Nothing inconsistent there. Public Services are used by everyone. My point was, that neither I, nor, any of my ancestors were slave owners, plantation owners, slave traders etc. As far as I can tell, my ancestors were Coal Miners, or, Agricultural Workers. I am from a long line of peasnats.

I cannot speak for the rest of you.

Love your style. Using those words when it suits you is fine and denying them when it doesn't is also fine.

Heads you win, tails we lose.

You know full well that 'our' and 'we' in the context of talking about our (without implying I am related to you) country is perfectly OK.

 

[BoldonLad]

I occasionally talk about british history with friends and reflect that "our" and "we" are the terms usually used. Maybe that's to clarify whether we are referring to the British army in contrast to the French Army, for example, but still revealing.

Of course, I understand that, but, in my opinion, that does not confer responsibility or culpability onto a whole Nation's population.

History, including some very recent History is full of unfortunate examples where a Country's leaders did serious. wrongs, but, I personally would not feel it acceptable to apportion blame to every single citizen even several generations into the future.

 

[newfhouse]

All of this "responsibility" for what previous generations did strikes my as being a bit "religious" to me, "sins of the fathers" and all that. I am amazed that the many non-believers buy into it.

How about an acknowledgement that you have benefited from the sins of others and that it wouldn't hurt to recognise that the opposite is true in other parts of the world?

 

[Rusty Nails]

All of this "responsibility" for what previous generations did strikes my as being a bit "religious" to me, "sins of the fathers" and all that. I am amazed that the many non-believers buy into it.

It is less about current 'responsibility' for than recognising the benefits that have been gained from what were inhuman activities and making some reparation for them.

I am not convinced that it will ever be possible to come up with a compensation figure especially since all those who suffered under it and those who initially profited are long dead, but perhaps some more aid and development programmes without expecting any financial profit in return for those countries would help.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Slavery and reparations needs a thread all of its own. It’s too important to be a mere diversion in a different thread.

 

[BoldonLad]

How about an acknowledgement that you have benefited from the sins of others and that it wouldn't hurt to recognise that the opposite is true in other parts of the world?

I would acknowledge that I may have benefited indirectly from "the sins of others".

Similarly, I acknowledge that some in other parts of the world may have been disadvantaged by above sins.

Similarly, I acknowledge that some in other parts of the world may have been advantaged by above sins.

It is all hundreds of years ago, are you really proposing an attempt to untangle all of that history?

It has happened, we cannot rerun the tape, the best we can do is try to ensure we move ahead in a better way, in my opinion of course.

Moving ahead will almost certainly involve learning from past mistakes, but, unless someone invents a Time Machine, we cannot change what has already happened.

 

[BoldonLad]

Slavery and reparations needs a thread all of its own. It’s too important to be a mere diversion in a different thread.

yes Boss, I shall desist

 

[icowden]

It is less about current 'responsibility' for than recognising the benefits that have been gained from what were inhuman activities and making some reparation for them.

Which is fine. Are the French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Portuguese and Americans also going to make reparations?

It wasn't just the British y'know.
And what of the West African Slavers who obtained the slaves in the first place? Are they also going to make reparations?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Which is fine. Are the French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Portuguese and Americans also going to make reparations?

It wasn't just the British y'know.
And what of the West African Slavers who obtained the slaves in the first place? Are they also going to make reparations?

What about etc etc.....

Nobody said it was simple.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Which is fine. Are the French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Portuguese and Americans also going to make reparations?

It wasn't just the British y'know.
And what of the West African Slavers who obtained the slaves in the first place? Are they also going to make reparations?

I don't really care. What they do is up to the French, Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Portuguese and US governments.

Should we decide our policy based on what others who did similar might do, or should we decide what is the right thing to do. I thought we were an independent country, mature enough to decide our own policies...after all that was why we left the EU wasn't it?