Trans athletes in sport....

[theclaud]

The problem it mainly throws up, as far as I can see, is that an Open category prevents transwomen receiving the validation of being in the exclusive Women's sex category. As I've said before though, in sport safety trumps fairness and fairness trumps inclusivity.

Other problems are that women would be competing in two tiers (with the implication that the women-only one is the lower), that transgender women may be at an unfair disadvantage compared to men who have not transitioned, that it won't necessarily help with eligibility problems faced by intersex athletes, and that it would remain just as open to legal or political challenge as the current categories. That's just off the top of my head. I'm not dismissing it - just objecting to the Stands to Reason, culture-war framing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's certainly possible to measure the advantages that males have over females in sports, and the advantage varies depending on the sport. Florence Joyner's Women's 100m world record is routinely broken by 1,500 boys and men every year. Unless you think elite women athletes just aren't trying hard enough, that fact alone demonstrates the advantages of a male body.

In sport, surely the science should decide what is fair?

 

[newfhouse]

It's certainly possible to measure the advantages that males have over females in sports, and the advantage varies depending on the sport. Florence Joyner's Women's 100m world record is routinely broken by 1,500 boys and men every year. Unless you think elite women athletes just aren't trying hard enough, that fact alone demonstrates the advantages of a male body.

The whole point of competitive sport is to tease out the advantages that one participant has over another. We have age, weight and sex categories for good reason.

Everyone also agrees, I think, that there is a conflict between inclusivity and fairness that varies from sport to sport, but simply saying that fairness must win every time doesn’t remove that conflict.

 

[Julia9054]

The research on which the IOC made its decision was very limited and mostly based on self appraisal of how transwomen felt their speed and strength had diminished over time. It wasn't objective. Even the author of that research, transwoman Joanna Harper, has rowed back on it and now says transwomen do have an advantage but it shouldn't matter if it's a small advantage.

The science which is clear is that men have physical advantages over women in sports that require explosive strength, due to the innate advantages of an adult male body. This is the science that has been ignored in favour of inclusively.

I think you misunderstand what I meant.
In scientific studies that take into account individual differences, large sample sizes are required. The lack of elite trans athletes and indeed trans people in general willing to be studied means that it is difficult to come to definitive conclusions either way. Add to that the varying different physical skill sets required for performance in different sports.
This is why this issue is so difficult to solve - "just follow the science" isn't going to work.

 

[Julia9054]

It's certainly possible to measure the advantages that males have over females in sports, and the advantage varies depending on the sport. Florence Joyner's Women's 100m world record is routinely broken by 1,500 boys and men every year. Unless you think elite women athletes just aren't trying hard enough, that fact alone demonstrates the advantages of a male body.

In sport, surely the science should decide what is fair?

The fact that males have an advantage over females in most sports is not disputed. The question of what - if anything - trans women can do in order to be able to compete fairly is not going to be one that scientific studies can adequately answer for the reasons I outlined above

 

[AuroraSaab]

The fact that males have an advantage over females in most sports is not disputed. The question of what - if anything - trans women can do in order to be able to compete fairly is not going to be one that scientific studies can adequately answer for the reasons I outlined above

I agree that due to small sample size it's difficult to judge how much of their innate physical advantage transwomen lose after hormone therapy. I would say though that this is a side issue as we already know that reducing testosterone doesn't mitigate the overall advantages of a male physiology.

Transwomen can compete fairly - in the sex class appropriate to their physiology or in an Open category. The whole premise of elite sports is to level the playing field as far as possible. Opening the Women's category to male bodies athletes is really an argument for doing away with all categories such as weight, age etc.

 

[Fab Foodie]

The fact that males have an advantage over females in most sports is not disputed. The question of what - if anything - trans women can do in order to be able to compete fairly is not going to be one that scientific studies can adequately answer for the reasons I outlined above

Putting my science thinking hat on....
One thing we sometimes do with inexact science problems is simply give stuff a go and see where it leads. I agree that we are trying to make short-term hard and fast decisions with limited data.

So maybe an option is something like a 5 year trial period of open competition for all sports to generate some useable data. It may be imperfect competition, but it would allow for a lot of data to be collected to allow better decision making on a per-sport basis for future inclusive competition.
I have one caveat, these open competitions must run as an integral part of the mainstream event, unlike (annoyingly) Paralympic events which are always separate to able-bodied events.

 

[AuroraSaab]

A Women's category and an Open category for a 5 year trial sounds like a way forward, if that's what you mean.

 

[Mr Celine]

Life isn't fair.

Sport should be.

 

[Fab Foodie]

A Women's category and an Open category for a 5 year trial sounds like a way forward, if that's what you mean.

Whatever candidate categories seem most appropriate and agreeable.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Shep to the bridge, please.

This has been done to death in the past and generally ends up with 3 main players going around in circles, we've seen it all before.

 

[Ian H]

Life isn't fair.

Sport should be.

It can't be, unless you level up (or down) everyone's physical and mental capabilities.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I don't have any difficulty in that myself. One of our group members is a woman who fathered two sons and as she has fully transitioned in every way, we tend to accept what she says on these issues. She was saying - before the Nicole Cooke column was published - that it's the most efficient way to cheat and there should be a trans-category for people who fall into that category.

Define most efficient.

It seems a very complicated, and costly in other ways than just financially, way to cheat to me, if that is the real purpose of anyone who transitions.

Does your friend know anyone who has transitioned for that purpose?

Transferred from the other thread to avoid going off topic.

 

[Rusty Nails]

This has been done to death in the past and generally ends up with 3 main players going around in circles, we've seen it all before.

Do you have an opinion on the topic, rather than the posters.

 

[BoldonLad]

I am not a sports fan, so, perhaps, my lack of interest means my opinion counts for zero, or, maybe, it just counts for zero... but

Most characteristics (eg ability to jump high, swim fast, run fast etc etc) are (IMHO) an accident of birth, perhaps, enhanced by a bit of coaching and training. Similarly, gender is as an accident of birth (if I understand the science correctly).

In sport, the "winner" is the person with the "best" performance, so, why not just scrap mens/womens categories and have one category for "people"?