Trans athletes in sport....

[BoldonLad]

I don't know whether you are being serious or not. You don't have to know anything about sport, just human physiology, to understand that certain, if not most, sporting activities favour men over women.
Yes, basketball favours tall people, as weightlifting favours strong people, high-jumping favours those with long legs, and archery favours people with good eyesight but difference in abilities are the essence in any sport when striving for success.

To equate these performance differentiating factors within the same sex with differences between sexes is just plain daft or attempting reductio ad absurdum.

Shorter people can, for instance, have dozens of alternative sports they can and do try other than basketball, but if women have a level of sporting ability, or not, and want to compete with any chance of success they are extremely limited on what they can take up.

It is not about creating a situation where no individual feels disadvantaged in participating in a sport, but one where roughly half the population will be disadvantaged.

It will lead to a huge drop off of women taking up sport whereas differing abilities in the same sex provides little or no barrier to participation.

I watched the Wales/Scotland women's rugby international yesterday and enjoyed the skill and tension, even though both sides would have been slaughtered by a men's team, and I guarantee none of those women would have taken up that sport and enjoyed its benefits in adulthood if it was mixed.

Basically, yes.

It was a serious suggestion, but, I accept, others may not agree.

My point basically was, IMHO, any solution will disadvantage some people.

If the objective is to minimise the numbers disadvantaged, we would need to know the proportions (ie numbers) of each group, in the population (of the world?). Do we know this?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Not quite. I didn’t say scrap age or weight sections, I said, scrap gender sections.

If your point is that some people have an innate physical advantage over others, and that's just their good fortune, then why keep weight categories?

Surely it's just a flyweight boxer's bad luck to be short and skinny, just like it's a female athlete's misfortune to be born female with the many physiological differences that stop her competing with males on an equal footing.

You could have a male and female athlete of exactly the same ability, size, age, training regimen, deducation, support etc. and the male will nearly always do better. (Endurance events are the exception to this). The biggest deciding factor in athletic achievement between athletes of similar ability is sex. Which is why Lia Thomas couldn't get above 400th in the country competing in the male category but is now a national women's champion.

 

[BoldonLad]

If your point is that some people have an innate physical advantage over others, and that's just their good fortune, then why keep weight categories?

Surely it's just a flyweight boxer's bad luck to be short and skinny, just like it's a female athlete's misfortune to be born female with the many physiological differences that stop her competing with males on an equal footing.

You could have a male and female athlete of exactly the same ability, size, age, training regimen, deducation, support etc. and the male will nearly always do better. (Endurance events are the exception to this). The biggest deciding factor in athletic achievement between athletes of similar ability is sex. Which is why Lia Thomas couldn't get above 400th in the country competing in the male category but is now a national women's champion. View attachment 941

As I have already said, IMHO, any solution will disadvantage one or more groups,the question therefore is, which group(s) are we willing to disadvantage.

I am not expressing a moral view on that choice, simply a practical observation.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Transwomen aren't being disadvantaged though. They are not being excluded from sport. They can compete fairly in the category of their biological sex. Every time a transwoman competes in the Women's category it takes a place away from a female athlete, who can't compete anywhere else.

It's like saying I'm disadvantaged by being barred from the 100 meters in the Paraolympics. I'm not. I could simply compete fairly in the appropriate able bodied class, though obviously I'd be in with less of a shout.


(* I couldn't actually run in the paraolympics anyway. Those folk are seriously quick).

 

[Mr Celine]

A Women's category and an Open category for a 5 year trial sounds like a way forward, if that's what you mean.

Why not a female category and an open category. Anyone with a Y chromosome has to compete in the open category.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Basically, yes.

It was a serious suggestion, but, I accept, others may not agree.

My point basically was, IMHO, any solution will disadvantage some people.

If the objective is to minimise the numbers disadvantaged, we would need to know the proportions (ie numbers) of each group, in the population (of the world?). Do we know this?

I apologise for doubting you.

You really do know nothing about sport, or why so many people, men and women, take part in it.

Divide all sports into sex-neutral classifications based on height, weight, hair colour etc. and you will have an immensely complicated system.....with each classification still disadvantaging 50% of the cohort. And numbers of women playing sport will plummet.

As I have already said, IMHO, any solution will disadvantage one or more groups,the question therefore is, which group(s) are we willing to disadvantage.
I am not expressing a moral view on that choice, simply a practical observation.

Women are not a group in any way comparable to, say, people measuring between 5'3" and 5'9". They are a separate sex that makes up half of the world.

Your idea is miles away from a practical observation. It is completely impractical if sport is to be encouraged.

 

[AuroraSaab]

To be fair to Bolden Lad, he is just doing what most of us usually do - trying to include everybody, trying to avoid hurting people's feelings, and looking for a way that gives everybody what they want. In this case, it's simply not possible. There is no way to fairly include male bodied people in the Women's sex category in high level sport. Trans activists won't accept the solution of an Open category, so inevitably some people are going to be left unhappy. It shouldn't be women that have to lose out though.

 

[qigong chimp]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5abgXEWQPlI

 

[Deleted member 28]

A stopped clock is right twice a day and this is one of those instances.

😉

 

[Deleted member 28]

It can't be, unless you level up (or down) everyone's physical and mental capabilities.

Of course it can, the best, fastest, strongest wins.

Age, weight, sex categories are there in certain events to create a more level field but other than that why can't sport be 'fair'?

 

[BoldonLad]

I apologise for doubting you.

You really do know nothing about sport, or why so many people, men and women, take part in it.

Divide all sports into sex-neutral classifications based on height, weight, hair colour etc. and you will have an immensely complicated system.....with each classification still disadvantaging 50% of the cohort. And numbers of women playing sport will plummet.



Women are not a group in any way comparable to, say, people measuring between 5'3" and 5'9". They are a separate sex that makes up half of the world.

Your idea is miles away from a practical observation. It is completely impractical if sport is to be encouraged.

1. Well, I did say that in my initial post, so, it would appear we agree

2. The current system IS divided into classifications based on weight (boxing), and gender (just about all sports. The hair colour etc you have introduced, I never mentioned it. What I suggested reduces the number of classifications, thus, I would have thought reducing the complexity.

3. I never said that women as a group where comparable to a group of any given height. Women may make up approximately 50% of the world population, but, do you know the exact proportion? I did point out that if we were to base our selection on the size (ie numerical content) of a given group, we would need to know. just what the %ge of each group (say, Male, Female, Trans, etc etc), and posed the question, 'did we know those %ges?'

4. That may well be true, and, given my lack of interest in sport, that is not an issue to me, personally. It would appear that you feel differently, so, your idea is?

 

[BoldonLad]

To be fair to Bolden Lad, he is just doing what most of us usually do - trying to include everybody, trying to avoid hurting people's feelings, and looking for a way that gives everybody what they want. In this case, it's simply not possible. There is no way to fairly include male bodied people in the Women's sex category in high level sport. Trans activists won't accept the solution of an Open category, so inevitably some people are going to be left unhappy. It shouldn't be women that have to lose out though.

Thank you for understanding my intention

 

[BoldonLad]

Why not a female category and an open category. Anyone with a Y chromosome has to compete in the open category.

Sounds reasonable, and, presumably scientifically verifiable.

 

[Milkfloat]

Transwomen aren't being disadvantaged though. They are not being excluded from sport. They can compete fairly in the category of their biological sex.

I just want to pick up on this part. I agree with almost everything else you have written on the topic, but not with this line. I feel that a transwomen has an unfair advantage in the female category, but they often cannot compete fairly in the male category. The hormone changes they go through when transitioning mean they are at a distinct disadvantage compared to males who have not transitioned. They really are in a lose/lose situation. Yes it would stop the cases of mediocre Dave deciding that to win a medal he can put on a dress, have a shave and self identify as a woman, but it does not mean a level playing field for a transwoman who has physically changed via hormones who is 'too male' for the female category and 'too female' for the male category.

I don't think there is a perfect solution as whatever is proposed as one group (except for males who have not transitioned) will always lose. I think it becomes a balance of what does the least harm to the smallest number of people. The nearest to that that is easy to implement seems to be the Open and Female categories at anything above 12 ish years of age and sorry to say if a transwomen wants to actually win they may need to look into mixed team sports.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

This is an unsolvable problem. No matter what the solution someone will feel hard done by.

I think it becomes a balance of what does the least harm to the smallest number of people.

Male and female categories by birth- trans people complain
Male and female by self identification- cis people complain
Male, female and 'open'- women feel third class
No gender categories- all prizes won by men competing as men
Everyone gets medicated to the same level of hormones- dangerous and weird
'Micro' categories- too confusing and the Olympics would need to last 8 months