Trial by jury

[Beebo]

Interesting that the moderately recent trial of a few from Extinction Rebellion who broke some windows as some Shell Offices. Judge instructed the jury they were guilty yet jury found them not guilty. Under proposed changes sounds like their case would have been magistrate or just judge ie no jury and they'd have been found guilty (as the judge commented they were).

Either we believe in justice under our jury system or we don't and seems to me Lamy was right 5 years ago when he said “Trials are a fundamental part of our democratic settlement. Criminal trials without juries are a bad idea.”

It works the other way too.
Juries can acquit rapists and poor drivers on the basis of “there but for the grace of god go I”

 

[Ian H]

It works the other way too.
Juries can acquit rapists and poor drivers on the basis of “there but for the grace of god go I”

Google Judge Julian Hall.

 

[briantrumpet]

Google Judge

Don't go giving David Lammy ideas.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I don't think he was right 5 years ago, because the precedent of non jury criminal trials already existed. The changes are therefore not as great as they are being presented.

I personally believe that there is a greater likelihood of fair outcomes without a jury. Even though magistrates have no legal qualifications they do have experience and legal guidance available to them. I would think the odds of being impartial and of following the actual law would be higher than for a one-off jury.

You've better impression of lay magistrates then I have!!

 

[First Aspect]

You've better impression of lay magistrates then I have!!

Or a worse opinion of juries. In any event, I'm not sure this announcement will make all that much difference to fairness either way.

 

[Beebo]

Germany have run a similar system and don’t seem to be falling apart.
no system will ever be perfect

 

[secretsqirrel]

It’s a pragmatic solution to the backlog rather than an ideological one.

That’s ok isn’t it?

 

[Shortfall]

It’s a pragmatic solution to the backlog rather than an ideological one.

That’s ok isn’t it?

The solution is to spend some money and create more capacity in the court system. Do you really think that If they manage to clear the backlog that they'll reinstate jury trials? If the government of the day want to get rid of juries for ideological.reasons rather than penny pinching then they should put it in their manifesto and openly campaign for it.

 

[briantrumpet]

The solution is to spend some money and create more capacity in the court system. Do you really think that If they manage to clear the backlog that they'll reinstate jury trials? If the government of the day want to get rid of juries for ideological.reasons rather than penny pinching then they should put it in their manifesto and openly campaign for it.

Happy with (more) tax rises to pay for that?

 

[Shortfall]

Happy with (more) tax rises to pay for that?

It's the right thing to do, where the government finds the money is up to them. I will obviously have different ideas to Keir Starmer about how to fund it but that's a different debate.

 

[Psamathe]

Germany have run a similar system and don’t seem to be falling apart.
no system will ever be perfect

As you say, it's not the system that has failed it's our politicians failing us (again).

 

[secretsqirrel]

The solution is to spend some money and create more capacity in the court system. Do you really think that If they manage to clear the backlog that they'll reinstate jury trials? If the government of the day want to get rid of juries for ideological.reasons rather than penny pinching then they should put it in their manifesto and openly campaign for it.

Ah, so you agreed with Lammy when he disagreed with the tories, and now you agree with the tories now they disagree with Lammy.

Sound.

 

[Psamathe]

The solution is to spend some money and create more capacity in the court system. Do you really think that If they manage to clear the backlog that they'll reinstate jury trials? If the government of the day want to get rid of juries for ideological.reasons rather than penny pinching then they should put it in their manifesto and openly campaign for it.

Also, how much ovcerhead does there being a jury add. Even with judge only each trial still needs to be scheduled, eveidence and cases presented by both sides, witnesses heard all exactly thge same whether just 1 judge listening or with all members of the jury. Judge will still need to deliberate over evidence presented (maybe a bit quicker than some juries) but will that be such a saving as to shift the massive backlog?

 

[Shortfall]

Ah, so you agreed with Lammy when he disagreed with the tories, and now you agree with the tories now they disagree with Lammy.

Sound.

I agree with existing system of jury trial being maintained. So did David Lammy when he was in opposition. I don't know what point you're trying to make here unless it's to try and pigeonhole me as an ideological Tory which I'm not.

 

[icowden]

@secretbarrister suggests that rather than trying to save money by getting rid of juries, the backlog could be better dealt with by improving things like prisons bringing prisoners and witnesses to the court, CPS actually delivering documents, the IT system / roofs / ceilings / toilets not collapsing etc.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2025...hy-is-the-government-overlooking-the-obvious/

I am supposed to be in a trial today. The allegations are serious, involving sexual offending against children. They date back to 2022. Dozens of lives all put on hold, waiting for the wheels of justice to slowly grind to a jury trial date three years later in 2025.

But there is no jury trial three years later. Instead, the trial has been kicked off to 2027, and I am sitting at home writing a blogpost.

The reason?

It has nothing to do with juries. It is because the Witness Care Unit – the body responsible for keeping in touch with witnesses and notifying them of important court dates – forgot to keep in touch with one of the key witnesses. She – the witness – was only told about the trial date a few days before the trial was due to begin. And she’s not available. So the trial cannot go ahead. It forlornly takes its place back in the queue.

This, you may be depressed to hear, is not actually unusual.