wafter
New Member
I'd prefer a democracy that functioned as a democracy should.
USA Midterms....
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I'd prefer a democracy that functioned as a democracy should.
spen666
Well-Known Member
people choosing their leader is that not how democracy works?
the fact you do not like some of what one or other candidate says is irrelevant
Both parties in this election were able to have their say.
Preventing people saying something simply because you disagree with it or limiting the dissemination of that is dictatorial and moving further away from democracy.
Also, democracy means learning to accept that others may have different views to yours
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
ITYFIABMCTT
Wow. Suppose it's their Brexit moment.
For me US has for years been too dominant and what US says the sycophantic nations do (eg UK) and there are too many such sycophantic nations. Result is you get a rogue leader (like Biden and his policy of pouring arms into a war zone to enable what appears to be war crimes) and other nations can do nothing beyond make some domestic noise that nobody listens to - because the only significant player is the enabler.
US was always going to lose its dominance but rest of world has become too dependent so that loss of dominance will have bad impacts on the rest of the world. So ideal route would be for a gradual slow change to allow rest of world to adapt and minimise the bad impacts. But the course the US has now taken will in my view mean a very fast change which will cause the rest of us a lot of bad impacts but at least over a short period and then we'll get to the new balance sooner.
Or maybe I'm just trying to see something that isn't all disaster.
Ian
For me US has for years been too dominant and what US says the sycophantic nations do (eg UK) and there are too many such sycophantic nations. Result is you get a rogue leader (like Biden and his policy of pouring arms into a war zone to enable what appears to be war crimes) and other nations can do nothing beyond make some domestic noise that nobody listens to - because the only significant player is the enabler.
US was always going to lose its dominance but rest of world has become too dependent so that loss of dominance will have bad impacts on the rest of the world. So ideal route would be for a gradual slow change to allow rest of world to adapt and minimise the bad impacts. But the course the US has now taken will in my view mean a very fast change which will cause the rest of us a lot of bad impacts but at least over a short period and then we'll get to the new balance sooner.
Or maybe I'm just trying to see something that isn't all disaster.
Ian
spen666
Well-Known Member
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Ian H
Legendary Member
Democracy isn't one thing. No two democratic systems are alike. None of them is immune to abuse.
spen666
Well-Known Member
Abuse like not accepting the decision of the election? ( eg Donald Trump 2020, Various 2024- July and November)
Abuse like trying to limit the dissemination of views you do not like
Ian H
Legendary Member
I'm sure you can think of more items for the list. Here's two to be going on with:-
Controlling and censoring the media.
Changing the constitution in your favour once you're elected.
Cirrus
Active Member
You forgot the + on the end
icowden
Legendary Member
Don't forget he also promised to imprison his opposition. I suppose at least we have the results of his New York court case to look forward to. I wonder what happens if they give him a custodial?
wafter
New Member
The nuance you're evidently choosing to ignore is that democracy only works in practice if the system is inherently fair and objective, and people's opinions are be informed, rational and independent.
There's a difference between respectfully accepting a candidate who won fairly, and one who's used every dirty trick available.
There's also the right to be concerned / critical for the outcome regardless of the route that leads there' although you seem concerned only with rubber-stamping the election process.
As such, presumably you have no issue with the outcome of the 1933 German "democratic" election that brought Hitler to power...?
spen666
Well-Known Member
The nuance you miss is that its not democracy if you are deciding what people can be told by which candidate. If one party fails to counter the other's views, then that is their failing.
You may think opinions are not informed, rational and independent, but that is merely your oopinion. Others may thing the opposite and who are you to stop someone campaigning?
PS If someone decides to vote for party A or supports party A, then they are not independent, so effectively you are disenfranchising everyone with an opinion
Says a person who cannot accept the result of an election and opposes democracy because they do not like the result.
This is conflating 2 different things. I am merely accepting the result of a democratic election.
I have deliberately not commented on the views of either candidate - because I didnot have a vote in the election. It is for the US electors to decide who they want as their president
Once again, your argument seems to be an anti democratic one. You seem to have a problem with accepting the result because of something that happened in a different country with a different legal system 90 years ago. Do we scrap all elections because of this? Not very democratic is it?
Democracy means accepting the result of the election. It does not mean liking the result.
Have a nice day as they say in the USA
ebikeerwidnes
Senior Member
Based on what a lot of people seemed to be saying after they had voted
Trump's message on inflation go through because he could just point to their grocery bill
Harris had to point out that it is not that simple and that Biden had done pretty well if you look at it properly
BUT people don't like being told to go off and check - they like nice simple slogans (Get Brexit Done and all that)
and the media in the US has managed to polarise a lot of the population to the extent that a lot of voters only read/listen to source coming from one side
either way - I am seriously worried about the effects he will have
or his successor in a few months possibly
he has promised a lot - and promised it quickly - we shall have to see what he actually tries to do and how
but as he has control of both Houses - or probably will - he will have the ability to do at least something for a couple of years at least
Trump's message on inflation go through because he could just point to their grocery bill
Harris had to point out that it is not that simple and that Biden had done pretty well if you look at it properly
BUT people don't like being told to go off and check - they like nice simple slogans (Get Brexit Done and all that)
and the media in the US has managed to polarise a lot of the population to the extent that a lot of voters only read/listen to source coming from one side
either way - I am seriously worried about the effects he will have
or his successor in a few months possibly
he has promised a lot - and promised it quickly - we shall have to see what he actually tries to do and how
but as he has control of both Houses - or probably will - he will have the ability to do at least something for a couple of years at least
AndyRM
Elder Goth
It's reassuring to know that even in these weird times we can rely on spen to tell us what democracy is.
Trump is a freak.
As you'd expect, Hunter S. Thompson has an appropriate quote for the occasion:
"But nobody can handle that other trip-- the possibility that any freak with $1.98 can walk into Circus-Circus and suddenly appear in the sky over downtown Las Vegas twelve times the size of God, howling anything that comes into his head. No, this is not a good town for psychedelic drugs."
Trump is a freak.
As you'd expect, Hunter S. Thompson has an appropriate quote for the occasion:
"But nobody can handle that other trip-- the possibility that any freak with $1.98 can walk into Circus-Circus and suddenly appear in the sky over downtown Las Vegas twelve times the size of God, howling anything that comes into his head. No, this is not a good town for psychedelic drugs."