War with Russia

[BoldonLad]

I'd guess that Europe increasing military budgets will be a gradual process (there isn't the money for an instant massive increase). So Governments might decide it's better for them to develop arms manufacturers within their own country (so the retain some of the increased expenditure and reap more of the benefits like employment, taxation, etc.) or at least within the EU.

And developiong local arms manufacturing can be done at the same time as budgest gradually increase.

Ian

Quite

 

[HMS_Dave]

So, if we can’t defend ourselves, why not just quit trying, and spend the defence budget on something else?

Good idea and exactly what im saying...

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I wondered (posted here or elsewhere as thread topics being discussed starting to overlap) if there might emerge a sort of NATO but without the US as sort of ETO. Pretty well same as NATO but no US. Not an EU Army (ie not a single force) but a treaty similar to NATO.

Reason: Several leaders of Baltic stated interviewed on TV asked if they thought the US would honour Article 5 (come to their defence if they were invaded) and they gave very much uncertainty to unlikely responses. And that sort of matches Trump's statements about Europe not relying on the US (despite there being treaties).

whilst Trump is for 4 years and it will be a rough ride what he has demonstrated is that they can be an unreliable partner/ally. So maybe Europe get on with sorting things out for itself. It will cost (but it's going to cost anyway) and at least we won't be subject to the wild treatment we seem to be getting from Trump and his minions.

Ian

So far as i known, an Nato mission does not require al members, all members are required to act if article 5 gets triggered which in turn only can be triggered by all members, but again so far as i known is perfectly possible to have a Nato mission with only a few Nato countries participating. Having said that something like Nato is much less complex then for example the EU so and Nato without US could work fine.

I don't think Trump would bail on Nato allies if attacked i have no doubt he would sacrifice Ukraine but Nato? Sure if the US steps in he will make it an EGO show(look how i president Trump saved the world again) but he would still do it.
Wrent't it not for the fact that ''US interest'' are more important then he likes to admit. (again the US debts position forces them to stay an superpower.)

 

[CXRAndy]

Trump says we are having a meeting with Russian to end the war

It happens 👍

What is Starmer doing, having a round table photo opportunity 🤡


View: https://x.com/charliekirk11/status/1891879752446902756?t=ReGzCKpbEgjXvtfEq9E5Sg&s=19

 

[Psamathe]

Wow, surprise, another Twitter post. Orginianity hits new high.

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

Wow, surprise, another Twitter post. Orginianity hits new high.

Ian

You're welcome 🤗

 

[HMS_Dave]

I'm sure we could ask Andy if he has any views of his own but I'm sure they'll be equally riveting as his copy and pastes from X.

 

[matticus]

Turkey makes a late surge in the race to host Ukraine in peace talks:

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/...ets-turkey-s-erdogan-amid-us-shift-on-ukraine

 

[Psamathe]

You're welcome 🤗

What makes you think others want to read all the stuff you read from Twitter? I'm sure if others were such Twitter adicts they'd register for themselves and read it themselves. Why push it on us all when we really are not interested?

Ian

 

[Psamathe]

Turkey makes a late surge in the race to host Ukraine in peace talks:

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/...ets-turkey-s-erdogan-amid-us-shift-on-ukraine

I'm no historian but Trump's current behaviour regarding Ukraine does (to me) seem to have similarities to the Munich Agreement caving up Czechoslovakia. I can see that if Europe will be expected to provide peacekeeping forces they might want to be involved but to me it's really for Ukraine to be the leader, to decide who it wants help from establishing peace talks, who it wants to ask to play what roles.

Possible that Zelenskyy has ben forced to make separate plans from the US if only because Ukraine seems excluded by the US. To me it has to be Ukraine's choice, for them to ask us or the US or whoever they want. Such requests might be more of a discussion than a "can you please x, y and z but not really for us to say. I certainly don't regard the support we've been giving them as having purchased any rights to dictate to them.

nb Do correct me if my limited history is wrong on this. I am definitely no historian.

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

What makes you think others want to read all the stuff you read from Twitter? I'm sure if others were such Twitter adicts they'd register for themselves and read it themselves. Why push it on us all when we really are not interested?

Ian

They could but don't

👍

 

[Psamathe]

They could but don't

👍

The don't because they decided not to and don't want to. Recognise and respect their decision.

Ian

 

[CXRAndy]

The don't because they decided not to and don't want to. Recognise and respect their decision.

Ian

I do,

You do you

and I do me 🤗

 

[Psamathe]

I do,

You do you

and I do me 🤗

But you are not. You are perpetually transcribing Twitter to pages here. As we both agreed, if people wanted to read these Twitter posts they'd register and read them on Twitter and if you respected their choice not to you wouldn't keep pushing it on everyone.

That says a lot about your character.

Ian

 

[HMS_Dave]

So, if we can’t defend ourselves, why not just quit trying, and spend the defence budget on something else?

The issue isn't about giving up but about being realistic of the challenges. For over 80 years we've been in the US's pocket when it comes to the defence of Europe. Suddenly, we've got a US leader hellbent on changing the landscape of the defence of the entire continent for political gain back home. Increasing the defence budget by a couple of billion pounds is not in itself going to improve the defence of Europe and build critical industry. If the US were to pull out of Europe that puts us at risk in the short and medium term against another unpredictable neighbour who wields like 6000 nuclear weapons. I think it should make us here in Europe think about whether relying on another superpower which is increasingly unpredictable and who might make further demands is right for Europe's security and instead come together for a structured, unified defence plan of Europe by Europeans because even with the EU, France has this idea and Italy want to do it this way and Poland.... etc It's fractured, disorganised and needs a unified and sovereign European defence strategy, which may come at some considerable cost.