War with Russia

[All uphill]

This is so wrong, in so many ways. It suggests you believe everything you have been told by the Western leaders and mass media about Russia and Putin, i.e. the same people who told you their "truth" about Gaza, like the stories that 1) Russia is weak, and YET 2) Russia is going to invade Europe, after conquering the whole of Ukraine.

For all his numerous faults, Trump is not wrong to "give away" the blinding truth obvious to everybody with an independent mind that Ukraine, even with the West's help short of starting WW3, can't win, can't recover lost land, and so has to stay neutral for the foreseeable future - a Russian demand that if given would have avoided this whole sorry saga in the first place 3 years ago.

And since this outcome was always inevitable due to the asymmetry of might and resolve, Trump is perfectly correct that Zellensky has seriously mismanaged his country, heavily abetted and aided by Trump's country notwithstanding.

The problem people here and so many Western "elites" have, is having believed the Neocon's lies for so long, they are still parroting them as truth and reality despite what is happening. Wake up!!

So the West just needed to give that nice Mr Putin everything he wanted, including overriding the wishes of a sovereign democratic country. And because we didn't it makes it OK to start a war of aggression resulting in 250,000 deaths so far.

 

[BoldonLad]

This is so wrong, in so many ways. It suggests you believe everything you have been told by the Western leaders and mass media about Russia and Putin, i.e. the same people who told you their "truth" about Gaza, like the stories that 1) Russia is weak, and YET 2) Russia is going to invade Europe, after conquering the whole of Ukraine.

For all his numerous faults, Trump is not wrong to "give away" the blinding truth obvious to everybody with an independent mind that Ukraine, even with the West's help short of starting WW3, can't win, can't recover lost land, and so has to stay neutral for the foreseeable future - a Russian demand that if given would have avoided this whole sorry saga in the first place 3 years ago.

And since this outcome was always inevitable due to the asymmetry of might and resolve, Trump is perfectly correct that Zellensky has seriously mismanaged his country, heavily abetted and aided by Trump's country notwithstanding.

The problem people here and so many Western "elites" have, is having believed the Neocon's lies for so long, they are still parroting them as truth and reality despite what is happening. Wake up!!

Interesting view.

Would the same "logic" apply to Chamberlain and Hitler?

We could all have been speaking German now, Israel/Gaza would not be a problem, and, no-one would have been killed in WW2.

Win-Win.

Unless of course, you live in the "little" Country which is invaded, and, you happen to be an "undesirable" or "non-conformist".

 

[matticus]

So the West just needed to give that nice Mr Putin everything he wanted, including overriding the wishes of a sovereign democratic country. And because we didn't it makes it OK to start a war of aggression resulting in 250,000 deaths so far.

Well done - you are no longer a Western elite, parroting the Neocon lies!

 

[matticus]

Even Zelensky's political opponents are supporting his status as elected leader:

https://www.politico.eu/article/don...kyy-president-ukraine-russia-war-white-house/

 

[Ian H]

Even Zelensky's political opponents are supporting his status as elected leader:

https://www.politico.eu/article/don...kyy-president-ukraine-russia-war-white-house/

On the other hand it is true that Ukraine is still a highly corrupt state. Zelensky was elected on a promise to root out corruption; he did nothing and became very unpopular until Russia invaded. Also there are actual fascists fighting for Ukraine and vying for influence.
Europe's involvement is in part about control of a huge area of some of the most fertile farmland in the world.

 

[Psamathe]

On the other hand it is true that Ukraine is still a highly corrupt state. Zelensky was elected on a promise to root out corruption; he did nothing

Whilst not defending corruption in any way, I thought Zelenskyy fired a number of officials where there was evidence of corruption.

I would suspect having a major war and defending your territory would complicate a lot of domestic reform. Doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't still happen but I can appreciate additional challenges.

Ian

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Would the same "logic" apply to Chamberlain and Hitler?

Don't recall Hitler had overwhelmingly asymmetric might and resolve. Do you? You see that's false equivalence, HOWEVER, on the other hand:

So the West just needed to give that nice Mr Putin everything he wanted, including overriding the wishes of a sovereign democratic country.

Unless of course, you live in the "little" Country which is invaded, and, you happen to be an "undesirable" or "non-conformist".

Absolutely! Ask Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. etc.... Or is the present shock and indignance only due to: a) "your team" being at the receiving end, or b) victims are Europeans and not some brown creatures, or c) your political leaders / media / pals say so, or d) you have been living under a rock so never saw the other conquests?

And because we didn't it makes it OK to start a war of aggression resulting in 250,000 deaths so far.

I never said it is "OK to start a war". But cause and effect matters, doesn't it? Since there is no higher authority above states, if people who are given the freedom to decide their own fate at the ballot box, yet are too ignorant or stupid to understand that it is not a good idea to poke an immediate neighbour with 6000 nukes and 5 times the population, by joining an opposing bully's team which had no qualms causing carnage around the world for decades and which might not risk lives and limbs never mind a nuclear exchange to protect you, then who should/could they blame but themselves?

Do people believe liberal democracy works without horrendous potential consequences? Or is it that the worst consequences have usually only been reserved for less favoured people? Last I heard, Israel is the only shining light of democracy in that region, isn't it true?

Doesn't the apparently dominant opinion of people here, who are supposedly interested in "News, Current Affairs and Politics", still showing they are incapable of figuring out the simple facts and logics I am mentioning after THREE years, yet they are allowed to vote at the ballot box, is another proof that liberal democracy is totally zarked?

 

[HMS_Dave]

Doesn't the apparently dominant opinion of people here, who are supposedly interested in "News, Current Affairs and Politics", still showing they are incapable of figuring out the simple facts and logics I am mentioning after THREE years

Don't get ahead of yourself here, you are not offering facts, only your opinion and your perspective, like everyone else. That self ego stroking probably has more bearing on people's reticence to engage more positively with you on the subject than your actual opinion.

 

[CXRAndy]

engage more positively with you

That's ' we have a clique group who pat each other on the back, we will mock the player who's not part of the clique'

👍

 

[HMS_Dave]

That's ' we have a clique group who pat each other on the back, we will mock the player who's not part of the clique'

👍

An exciting and worthwhile comment. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CXRAndy]

An exciting and worthwhile comment. Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome 👍

 

[BoldonLad]

Don't recall Hitler had overwhelmingly asymmetric might and resolve. Do you? You see that's false equivalence, HOWEVER, on the other hand:




Absolutely! Ask Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. etc.... Or is the present shock and indignance only due to: a) "your team" being at the receiving end, or b) victims are Europeans and not some brown creatures, or c) your political leaders / media / pals say so, or d) you have been living under a rock so never saw the other conquests?



I never said it is "OK to start a war". But cause and effect matters, doesn't it? Since there is no higher authority above states, if people who are given the freedom to decide their own fate at the ballot box, yet are too ignorant or stupid to understand that it is not a good idea to poke an immediate neighbour with 6000 nukes and 5 times the population, by joining an opposing bully's team which had no qualms causing carnage around the world for decades and which might not risk lives and limbs never mind a nuclear exchange to protect you, then who should/could they blame but themselves?

Do people believe liberal democracy works without horrendous potential consequences? Or is it that the worst consequences have usually only been reserved for less favoured people? Last I heard, Israel is the only shining light of democracy in that region, isn't it true?

Doesn't the apparently dominant opinion of people here, who are supposedly interested in "News, Current Affairs and Politics", still showing they are incapable of figuring out the simple facts and logics I am mentioning after THREE years, yet they are allowed to vote at the ballot box, is another proof that liberal democracy is totally zarked?

a) Hitler achieved more "conquest" in two years than Russia has managed in three years, seems like he must have at least some symmetrical might and resolve.

b) show me one single post where I have supported the attacks on Libya, Iraq et etc, I think, you assume too much

Unless I have missed something, during one of my "Pensioner naps"... The "super powers" and/or Western Powers may have laid waste to several Countries, since WW2, (which is, or course, deplorable) but, I don't recall any of them actually conquering and occupying any of them? Perhaps, for all their "military might" they are not quite as powerful as they seem to think they are?

 

[BoldonLad]

On the other hand it is true that Ukraine is still a highly corrupt state. Zelensky was elected on a promise to root out corruption; he did nothing and became very unpopular until Russia invaded. Also there are actual fascists fighting for Ukraine and vying for influence.
Europe's involvement is in part about control of a huge area of some of the most fertile farmland in the world.

I often read, on here, of corruption in the UK, particularly in relation to the previous Government, although, just today in PE today, there is mention of "gifts" still being received by our Chancellor.

Similarly, the existence of Nazis within our population is frequently mentioned on here.

I read recently, it was the access to certain "valuable minerals" (I don't know what type) which was motivating Mr P and Mr T, but, maybe the Europeans are after the farmland, do people/State Leaders typically have ulterior motives?, sadly, I suspect the answer is "yes".

 

[All uphill]

Absolutely! Ask Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. etc.... Or is the present shock and indignance only due to: a) "your team" being at the receiving end, or b) victims are Europeans and not some brown creatures, or c) your political leaders / media / pals say so, or d) you have been living under a rock so never saw the other conquests?

Huge assumptions there.

I, and many others, are more than indignant about interventions in the countries you mention and the effect those interventions had on the people who live there.

That's why many of us have demonstrated and volunteered with some of the victims.

 

[Rusty Nails]

So the West just needed to give that nice Mr Putin everything he wanted, including overriding the wishes of a sovereign democratic country. And because we didn't it makes it OK to start a war of aggression resulting in 250,000 deaths so far.

If you have ever read much of RAFN's occasional sorties into this arena you will know that he is not too keen on democracies, especially "liberal" ones. The people are far too ignorant to decide how they should be run and need a nice strong autocratic leader (benevolent of course, because they always are) to look after them.