Yet more Tory sleaze….

[farfromtheland]

Sadly he was the Michael Foot of the Labour Party but without the intellect.
In an ideal world perhaps people would have seen through the attacks on him but this is not an ideal world and when voting for a potential government pragmatism takes over...

Jeremy Corbyn is as intellectual as Michael Foot was, but he was not playing the same game of statesmanship.

In a halfway decent world people could see that he was a victim of the popular press. However pragmatic one may be, conceeding this much power to the moneyed news barons is a cop out. You think Boris Johnson is corrupt? Look at that lot.

 

[Mugshot]

Thanks as I said the biggest difference was Brexit ? 2017big enough gains.
2019 well we know about that !
So am I wrong in saying that in 2017 it was respect the referendum...
2019 it wasnt.....well we know the rest.

I thought the issue was all the nasty things the press were saying about Corbyn

 

[Deleted member 49]

I thought the issue was all the nasty things the press were saying about Corbyn

I think you'll find I've allways said that the 52 lost seats were leave voting ones and that it had nothing to do with Brexit is delusional.
The smear campaign against Corbyn was the icing on the cake !
I

 

[Mugshot]

Still, Labour ahead in the polls, Tory party imploding, must be time for a Labour civil war

 

[farfromtheland]

Still, Labour ahead in the polls, Tory party imploding, must be time for a Labour civil war

One of the things Labour have to do to win an election is act honourably. It might even be enough in the current situation, and win votes from many of those conservative voters who swing the balance. The Labour right wing cannot act honourably while a big part of their agenda is to suppress the left rather than engage with it. This will be their downfall electorally as well as practically.

 

[Rusty Nails]

One of the things Labour have to do to win an election is act honourably. It might even be enough in the current situation, and win votes from many of those conservative voters who swing the balance. The Labour right wing cannot act honourably while a big part of their agenda is to suppress the left rather than engage with it. This will be their downfall electorally as well as practically.

Plus ça change!

I remember back in 2018 when the Labour left wing were in the ascendancy and there were calls for re-election to be made easier, and for members of more extreme left wing groups to be allowed to join.
Ostensibly this was claimed as increasing democracy in the party but in reality it was an attempt by the newly powerful left wing to assert their strength and suppress the right rather than engage with it. That was not particularly honourable and may have contributed to the disastrous defeat in 2019.

While we have a political duopoly and a public that seem quite content with it there will always be this see-saw battle between groups in the Labour Party for control of the left wing of politics, or should that be the non-right-wing.

The Social Democrats tried to break this duopoly in the 1980s but even with a strong bunch of former Labour MPs they failed to persuade the public there was a left-leaning alternative to the Labour Party, so the battle for control of the party continues.

 

[farfromtheland]

Plus ça change!

I remember back in 2018 when the Labour left wing were in the ascendancy and there were calls for re-election to be made easier, and for members of more extreme left wing groups to be allowed to join.
Ostensibly this was claimed as increasing democracy in the party but in reality it was an attempt by the newly powerful left wing to assert their strength and suppress the right rather than engage with it. That was not particularly honourable and may have contributed to the disastrous defeat in 2019.

While we have a political duopoly and a public that seem quite content with it there will always be this see-saw battle between groups in the Labour Party for control of the left wing of politics, or should that be the non-right-wing.

The Social Democrats tried to break this duopoly in the 1980s but even with a strong bunch of former Labour MPs they failed to persuade the public there was a left-leaning alternative to the Labour Party, so the battle for control of the party continues.

I was around and adult for the SDP phenomenon. I even voted Labour that once. Shows there is no real appetite for centreist sell outs in my opinion.

I disagree about 2018. Some of my family have been involved with Labour and the unions as long as I can remember, from an ethical perspective. The lack of integrity of the Leadership had always been a problem, as has career opportunism at all levels.

However the 'extreme left' who joined during Jeremy Corbyn's time, if they were extreme, were not necessarily members of groups. I was tempted, but I didn't, being a member of such a group at the time, but I took an active interest, because the Labour party has always claimed to be the voice of people like us. Two friends of mine did join, and were repelled by the local party machinations. We all knew of these tricks, having been campaigning on land and community issues against Labour councils which had few or no scruples. We only managed to save community assets by raising the game and campaigning in the community on the ground, and got some appreciation for that from the nicer Labour people.

So we rather hoped to see an energised Labour party at a local level and that new members would be welcomed and respected. I'm willing to accept that there was a 'Militant Tendency' style contingent who messed things up, but I saw no evidence of it. Where is the evidence?

 

[Rusty Nails]

I was around and adult for the SDP phenomenon. I even voted Labour that once. Shows there is no real appetite for centreist sell outs in my opinion.

I disagree about 2018. Some of my family have been involved with Labour and the unions as long as I can remember, from an ethical perspective. The lack of integrity of the Leadership had always been a problem, as has career opportunism at all levels.

However the 'extreme left' who joined during Jeremy Corbyn's time, if they were extreme, were not necessarily members of groups. I was tempted, but I didn't, being a member of such a group at the time, but I took an active interest, because the Labour party has always claimed to be the voice of people like us. Two friends of mine did join, and were repelled by the local party machinations. We all knew of these tricks, having been campaigning on land and community issues against Labour councils which had few or no scruples. We only managed to save community assets by raising the game and campaigning in the community on the ground, and got some appreciation for that from the nicer Labour people.

So we rather hoped to see an energised Labour party at a local level and that new members would be welcomed and respected. I'm willing to accept that there was a 'Militant Tendency' style contingent who messed things up, but I saw no evidence of it. Where is the evidence?

I haven't a clue what you mean by a "militant tendency style contingent who messed things up" as I never mentioned that. Are you talking about Momentum?
My evidence that there was a continuation of the battle between left and right comes from reading the news of the day and from talking to friends of mine who are still in the Labour party. It might not satisfy Sue Gray's definition of evidence but it is as strong as the evidence to show that there was no battle for control between different factions.

 

[theclaud]

comes from reading the news of the day

LOL I can see where you're going wrong there.

 

[Rusty Nails]

LOL I can see where you're going wrong there.

I'd had enough of seeing first hand what it was like in the past. I'll settle for the internet and media plus current members' gossip these days.
Strangely enough I'm still on the mailing list for constituency party emails almost five years on.

 

[Deleted member 49]

.I'll settle for the internet and media plus current members' gossip these days.

I can now see where you get your Starmer adoration from....

 

[theclaud]

I'd had enough of seeing first hand what it was like in the past. I'll settle for the internet and media plus current members' gossip these days.
Strangely enough I'm still on the mailing list for constituency party emails almost five years on.

The Labour List weekly email is as good a summary of what's going on in the party as you'll find anywhere.

https://labourlist.org/sign-up/

 

[Rusty Nails]

I can now see where you get your Starmer adoration from....?

I doubt that very much. I did believe that he would make a better leader than Corbyn, but then that wasn't too hard, although he has been very disappointing since. TBF people will have to wait for him to lose two GEs before they appreciatee what a great leader he was.

Where do you get your Corbyn love from? All Our Yesterdays?.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The Labour List weekly email is as good a summary of what's going on in the party as you'll find anywhere.

https://labourlist.org/sign-up/

I read stuff from that occasionally and also Novara. Count them as part of the media.

 

[farfromtheland]

Where do you get your Corbyn love from? All Our Yesterdays?.

I get my respect for Jeremy Corbyn from when he stood up against the poll tax, something the Labour leadership really failed on. The issue that effectively toppled Margaret Thatcher.