American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

[ebikeerwidnes]

I would imagine from your mum's point of view that having wanted a child so much, and having had miscarriages, her view of pregnancy was as a much wanted gift. She obviously found it difficult to see that other women didn't see it that way. I'm sure that at other points in her life she would have had a more sympathetic view of other women's circumstances.

TBF - she I never heard her criticise anyone for having one - just that she didn't understand it
if someone she knew did then I'm sure she would have been sympathetic - it just never happened

the only things she really judged people for was cruelty to children - and dogs

 

[Unkraut]

1. Can you name any state that allows abortion up to birth without needing a reason?

2. Can you name any state where it is illegal to save a baby born alive?


I would be interested to know so I can go and look up their laws and the reasons for such laws...if they exist

I have gleaned information on this from various blogs or apologists in the States. Doug Wilson, James White, Anglican Unscripted. Allowing babies to die was I believe filmed on the notorious Planned Parenthood secret videos, although I never watched them in 2015. Wilson commented on them quite a bit at the time. He's very good at dismantling the woke insanity, some issues I have a bit of a problem with him.

Anglican Unscripted commented on it not being allowed to save babies of botched abortions fairly recently, and White iirc on one episode said a legislature had passed a law allowing abortion up to birth. The thing that stuck in my mind was feminists outside the buildindg wept for joy at this new 'right'. I don't know where this was - I don't take notes on all this.

As these all live in the States, unless there is good reason not to I tend to accept what they say as likely accurate. Anglican Unscripted would soon be put right in the comments.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There are so many things in life where we don't really empathise because it's outside our own experience. I think the US abortion debate exemplifies this a bit atm.

I mean, adoption is great but stuff like this shows a very simplistic understanding of the issues around abortion.

 

[icowden]

View attachment 1531

Did anyone else look at this picture and think "i'm not sure they should be put in charge of a child..."

 

[Unkraut]

My right to own my own body, totally is the issue.

Constantly asserted, but it's not the issue.

But you do believe that an clump of cells has more right to it than I do.

The clump of cells is human, and very obviously so not that long after conception. The unborn therefore deserve the full protection of the law, namely a right to life, just as everybody else. You can assert this and at the same time grant women bodily autonomy, although I don't regard the latter as absolute.

You also seem to 'think' you know how I or any other woman will think or feel about decisions we have made in the future.

Whilst studying I went to a meeting on campus about post-abortion trauma. It was not about the morality of abortion, and did not have a religious component. The social worker leading it, who had been an advocate of abortion, was seriously bothered by the trauma being suffered after an abortion by too many women. 'We've got to get the numbers down'. I always rememeber a girl getting up at the end, and saying she had had an abortion 'and it didn't do me any harm'. I have never seen anybody so messed up, she was the perfect illustration of what the social worker was talking about.

I have also known others over the years who have had to deal with this. A lot of time and effort spent helping women pastorily. I don't know how widespread such trauma is, but it does no-one any good to sweep it under the carpet.

In your eyes, human sexual relations aren't about mutual pleasure; bonding; for fun; or building relationships are they ?
Solely for the purposes of making babies..

That's pure speculation on your part. The problem with identity politics - not everybody actually fits the identity assigned.

So much misery inflicted, in so many ways upon humans in the name of this supposedly 'righteous' and judgemental God ..

You are right there is a lot of misery, but I think it is being caused by unrighteous secularism and its ideologies. Why is it that when the law of this God (whom most here believe does not exist) is disobeyed, it invariably leads to our own hurt and that of the society we live in?

 

[icowden]

The clump of cells is human, and very obviously so not that long after conception. The unborn therefore deserve the full protection of the law, namely a right to life, just as everybody else. You can assert this and at the same time grant women bodily autonomy, although I don't regard the latter as absolute.

But you do think that the "clump of cells" own right to life is more important than the mother's right to life right? So if the pregnancy endangers the woman, tough. If the pregnancy is going to cause the woman severe mental distress and anguish, then tough? And once the clump has become a baby and is born, your interest ends right? You don't also think that the father should be responsible for ensuring that the baby is clothed and fed, or that - for example - a rapist should be forced to pay childcare for the infant. You aren't concerned with the anguish that the mother is put through every time she has to see the rapist who has a right to part custody of the child, or in giving the mother money to feed, clothe, raise and educate the child that she didn't want to have?

As long as the clump of cells lives, who cares what happens next? Is that your thesis?

 

[mudsticks]

Constantly asserted, but it's not the issue.

The clump of cells is human, and very obviously so not that long after conception. The unborn therefore deserve the full protection of the law, namely a right to life, just as everybody else. You can assert this and at the same time grant women bodily autonomy, although I don't regard the latter as absolute.

Whilst studying I went to a meeting on campus about post-abortion trauma. It was not about the morality of abortion, and did not have a religious component. The social worker leading it, who had been an advocate of abortion, was seriously bothered by the trauma being suffered after an abortion by too many women. 'We've got to get the numbers down'. I always rememeber a girl getting up at the end, and saying she had had an abortion 'and it didn't do me any harm'. I have never seen anybody so messed up, she was the perfect illustration of what the social worker was talking about.

I have also known others over the years who have had to deal with this. A lot of time and effort spent helping women pastorily. I don't know how widespread such trauma is, but it does no-one any good to sweep it under the carpet.

That's pure speculation on your part. The problem with identity politics - not everybody actually fits the identity assigned.

You are right there is a lot of misery, but I think it is being caused by unrighteous secularism and its ideologies. Why is it that when the law of this God (whom most here believe does not exist) is disobeyed, it invariably leads to our own hurt and that of the society we live in?

Wow, the arrogance and ignorance that seeps from this post, really shows what we as women are up against when we seek to assert our simple rights over our own bodies and lives as autonomous human beings,

Our bodily autonomy 100% is the issue, despite your attempt by to deny it

I really can't be bothered to.keep restating the points I've already made that refutes all of the things you've written, and more.

I've got other stuff to do.


What saddens me is how we as women are still having to waste energy and time having to fight forced birthers like you, on behalf of ourselves, and our sisters.

What's also sad / disappointing is the often rather muted support from men who claim to believe in equal rights.

But no surprise there I guess, it's the same with defence of our basic rights in other areas of life.


Pretty sick of still having to argue any of this in this century.

 

[winjim]

I'm no expert but I'd put money on early, safe, legal, supported termination of pregnancy being a damn sight less traumatic than some of the alternatives.

 

[mudsticks]

There are so many things in life where we don't really empathise because it's outside our own experience. I think the US abortion debate exemplifies this a bit atm.

I mean, adoption is great but stuff like this shows a very simplistic understanding of the issues around abortion.

View attachment 1531

Empathy around a subject not in our direct experience requires informed imagination,
And in this case requires listening to actual live women, that's a bit beyond some folks.

But you do think that the "clump of cells" own right to life is more important than the mother's right to life right? So if the pregnancy endangers the woman, tough. If the pregnancy is going to cause the woman severe mental distress and anguish, then tough? And once the clump has become a baby and is born, your interest ends right? You don't also think that the father should be responsible for ensuring that the baby is clothed and fed, or that - for example - a rapist should be forced to pay childcare for the infant. You aren't concerned with the anguish that the mother is put through every time she has to see the rapist who has a right to part custody of the child, or in giving the mother money to feed, clothe, raise and educate the child that she didn't want to have?

As long as the clump of cells lives, who cares what happens next? Is that your thesis?

No point arguing with a forced birther.

They're the same mindset / mould who would force or coerce women into having terminations .
As detailed earlier .
It's all about control, retaining dominance by any means necessary.

I'm no expert but I'd put money on early, safe, legal, supported termination of pregnancy being a damn sight less traumatic than some of the alternatives.

Well yes, but welfare of women, and children isn't top of the agenda here.

If it was, then people wouldn't want to try to force women to continue with an unwanted pregnancy.

This is about something else altogether..

 

[winjim]

Also, talk of 'getting the numbers down'. I don't think anybody's endpoint is 'more abortion'. The argument is for abortion to be safe, legal and accessible, not for there to be more of it. To my mind it would be nice for there to be fewer abortions happening, but that can't be achieved by making it illegal.

There's a Sarah Silverman joke* which I think sums it up beautifully:

'I wanted to get an abortion...​

​

...but me and my boyfriend are having real difficulty conceiving.'​

​

​

​

*I'm aware she says she regrets and has apologised for some of her abortion material but I honestly think this one's really good.

 

[winjim]

Well yes, but welfare of women, and children isn't top of the agenda here.

If it was, then people wouldn't want to try to force women to continue with an unwanted pregnancy.

This is about something else altogether.

In some cases, yes I think you're right especially with the current situation in the US but I'm trying to address what's been written on the forum. I don't agree at all with @Unkraut's religious position on abortion but I also think from his postings that he doesn't take as simplistic a view of his religion as some seem to want to ascribe to him, nor as uncaring as some on the American religious right.

 

[mudsticks]

Also, talk of 'getting the numbers down'. I don't think anybody's endpoint is 'more abortion'. The argument is for abortion to be safe, legal and accessible, not for there to be more of it. To my mind it would be nice for there to be fewer abortions happening, but that can't be achieved by making it illegal.

There's a Sarah Silverman joke* which I think sums it up beautifully:

'I wanted to get an abortion...​

​

...but me and my boyfriend are having real difficulty conceiving.'​

​

​

​

*I'm aware she says she regrets and has apologised for some of her abortion material but I honestly think this one's really good.

Really good sex ed, and free access to contraception is an effective way of reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies resulting from consensual sexual activity...

Although it won't prevent all of them happening, as aside from vasectomies and sterilisation - maybe ; no method is 100% infallible, or indeed is usable by everyone.

So access to safe terminations will always be necessary.

But large parts of the US, and other countries doesn't want good sex ed, and free access to contraception.

Allegedly on cultural and religious grounds

Then of course there's all the instances of unwanted pregnancies that arise from non consensual sex, rape, abuse, and from deliberate tampering with birth control etc.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I have gleaned information on this from various blogs or apologists in the States. Doug Wilson, James White, Anglican Unscripted. Allowing babies to die was I believe filmed on the notorious Planned Parenthood secret videos, although I never watched them in 2015. Wilson commented on them quite a bit at the time. He's very good at dismantling the woke insanity, some issues I have a bit of a problem with him.

Anglican Unscripted commented on it not being allowed to save babies of botched abortions fairly recently, and White iirc on one episode said a legislature had passed a law allowing abortion up to birth. The thing that stuck in my mind was feminists outside the buildindg wept for joy at this new 'right'. I don't know where this was - I don't take notes on all this.

As these all live in the States, unless there is good reason not to I tend to accept what they say as likely accurate. Anglican Unscripted would soon be put right in the comments.

So the response to @spen666 is no. You cannot name a US State where (a) full term abortion is permitted and (b) it is illegal to save a foetus aborted alive.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If any good comes from this whole situation in the US it might be that, once things swing back the other way, people realise that good pregnancy health care, free contraception, unbiased sex education, are all things that will lower the abortion rate. As Winjim said, nobody is campaigning for more abortions.

 

[Bazzer]

......
You are right there is a lot of misery, but I think it is being caused by unrighteous secularism and its ideologies. Why is it that when the law of this God (whom most here believe does not exist) is disobeyed, it invariably leads to our own hurt and that of the society we live in?

Are you turning Nelson's eye to the death, misery, and long term damage, that over 2 millennia of religion has caused to millions of people?