American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

[ebikeerwidnes]

What about tax - can you claim Children's tax benefits from conception - backdated from when you find out

Oh - and child support from the father - from conception not birth

and clearly they need health care - Damn - sorry - wrong country

 

[mudsticks]

This article examples the societal pressures that women can experience around childbearing.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...-wish-they-werent-mothers-roe-v-wade-abortion

It 'should' always be a personal choice, not an expectation, or obligation.

Sadly we are a way off, from that being the case.

 

[mudsticks]

What about tax - can you claim Children's tax benefits from conception - backdated from when you find out

Oh - and child support from the father - from conception not birth

and clearly they need health care - Damn - sorry - wrong country

Still weirds me out that anyone should want to force or coerce another human being into continuing with an unwanted pregnancy.

Is it just about wanting 'control' - particularly control over women and their bodies.

Or is there something else at play here..??

 

[AuroraSaab]

Control is the main thing, I think. As Andrea Dworkin said, to the Right women are private property, to the Left they are public property.

 

[All uphill]

Control is the main thing, I think. As Andrea Dworkin said, to the Right women are private property, to the Left they are public property.

That's a like for the insight, not the idea of women as property!

 

[mudsticks]

Even in the UK you can only receive income support benefits for a third child, if you can prove it was conceived through having being raped .

Yes this policy in our so called 'civilised' country..

Who comes up with my this stuff???

Control is the main thing, I think. As Andrea Dworkin said, to the Right women are private property, to the Left they are public property.

Playthings, servants, or bringers forth, and carers of the next* generation..

People in their own right, with autonomy, hopes, dreams, and ambitions of their own??

I rather think not...

*And often the previous at the same time...

 

[qigong chimp]

You're the conduits whereby the fruits of a man's labours get visited on his heirs through patriarchal heredity.
Given your fickleness, frailty, incontinence, cussedness and tendency to harlotry your fertility needs to be controlled, that a man might be sure it's his own seed he's cultivating and not the milkman's, or the Vicomte de Valmont's, or his enemy's.

 

[mudsticks]

You're the conduits whereby the fruits of a man's labours get visited on his heirs through patriarchal heredity.
Given your fickleness, frailty, incontinence, cussedness and tendency to harlotry your fertility needs to be controlled, that a man might be sure it's his own seed he's cultivating and not the milkman's, or the Vicomte de Valmont's, or his enemy's.

Indeed..

Meanwhile on other threads, it would seem I am to be attributed both capricious childishness, and at the same time overbearing matriarchy.

Quite the range ..

😊

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I read an entry on another site written by a woman who had an abortion in the USA quite a few years ago.
At the time she was married but they had very little money and even less security

She said it was a difficult decision but she (they) felt it was the best thing to do
They now have good jobs and 2 children and are a 'proper American family' just like the GOP wants

However, when at the time she had the abortion she knew another woman in a similar position who had the baby - she is still poor, litttle security and lives on a very deprived area and has difficulty keeping a job due to child care and expense etc etc etc
She also get a lot of hassle from people because she is on benefits and all that

The same people that will, if they can, stop other women in this initial position getting an abortion

the whole system makes no sense

 

[mudsticks]

I read an entry on another site written by a woman who had an abortion in the USA quite a few years ago.
At the time she was married but they had very little money and even less security

She said it was a difficult decision but she (they) felt it was the best thing to do
They now have good jobs and 2 children and are a 'proper American family' just like the GOP wants

However, when at the time she had the abortion she knew another woman in a similar position who had the baby - she is still poor, litttle security and lives on a very deprived area and has difficulty keeping a job due to child care and expense etc etc etc
She also get a lot of hassle from people because she is on benefits and all that

The same people that will, if they can, stop other women in this initial position getting an abortion

the whole system makes no sense

Something you learn very early on, as a woman, is that no matter what you do, say, wear, or choose, for yourself, there will be a large phalanx of people (both male and female) along very soon afterward to tell you you're wrong, and punish you if at all possible..

Too fecund - or too barren .

Too loud - or too mousy.

Too ambitious - or else you lack purpose..

Too sexy - or you've not made an effort..

Too fat - or too skinny..

Too independent or career focussed - or you're too needy / a gold-digger..

Too free and easy - versus uptight and overthinking..

Too clever by half 'overeducated' - or else a dumb broad..

Etc etc .

The middle way / narrow window of 'acceptabiity' between these judgements is about as wide as a cotton thread..

If it exists at all..

It's constructed thus, by decades of patriachal culture, to try to keep women second guessing themselves, constantly judging themselves, and often each other too..

Until you see the game for what it is..

And sack it all off in favour of having control over your own life, and body, and decide to be yourself..

Unfortunately 'being oneself' still isn't an option available to that many women..


Many get badly hurt, or even get killed for having such ridiculous notions..

Marginalised, deprived of resources, burnt as offensive to the natural order of things.

All the fun stuff.. 🙄

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Something you learn very early on, as a woman, is that no matter what you do, say, wear, or choose, for yourself, there will be a large phalanx of people (both male and female) along very soon afterward to tell you you're wrong, and punish you if at all possible..

Too fecund - or too barren .

Too loud - or too mousy.

Too ambitious - or else you lack purpose..

Too sexy - or you've not made an effort..

Too fat - or too skinny..

Too independent or career focussed - or you're too needy / a gold-digger..

Too free and easy - versus uptight and overthinking..

Too clever by half 'overeducated' - or else a dumb broad..

Etc etc .

The middle way / narrow window of 'acceptabiity' between these judgements is about as wide as a cotton thread..

If it exists at all..

It's constructed thus, by decades of patriachal culture, to try to keep women second guessing themselves, constantly judging themselves, and often each other too..

Until you see the game for what it is..

And sack it all off in favour of having control over your own life, and body, and decide to be yourself..

Unfortunately 'being oneself' still isn't an option available to that many women..


Many get badly hurt, or even get killed for having such ridiculous notions..

Marginalised, deprived of resources, burnt as offensive to the natural order of things.

All the fun stuff.. 🙄

I agree - yes - i know I am a man but I can see it happening

The thing that gets me is that often the most dedicated people policing this sexist attitude to 'some women' - which means they see as different to their concept of correct - are other women
I used to work in a school which had been an independent fee paying girl's school until a few years before. Hence a lot of 'posh' female teachers compared to the schools I spent most of my career in
They were horrendously judgemental about other women - especially ones of what they considered lower social classes

I have worked with some sexist men but I could talk to them about it and discuss it - maybe to no avail but anyway
These women could not discuss it - the 'way women are supposed to behave' was just a God ordained fact not to be questioned

 

[mudsticks]

I agree - yes - i know I am a man but I can see it happening

The thing that gets me is that often the most dedicated people policing this sexist attitude to 'some women' - which means they see as different to their concept of correct - are other women
I used to work in a school which had been an independent fee paying girl's school until a few years before. Hence a lot of 'posh' female teachers compared to the schools I spent most of my career in
They were horrendously judgemental about other women - especially ones of what they considered lower social classes

I have worked with some sexist men but I could talk to them about it and discuss it - maybe to no avail but anyway
These women could not discuss it - the 'way women are supposed to behave' was just a God ordained fact not to be questioned

Well yes that can be the case..


All kinds of complicated psychologies, and hierachical stuff going on there..

Including that 'The order, and the rules of things must not be questioned, or there will be trouble.

Some of all this is about women, who think we must 'earn' our rights by being 'good ladies'

So seeing other women just going and doing, and being stuff, without first having got clearance from 'On High' goes against the grain, and must be stopped..

'On high' being the controlling, patriachal powers that be, with their 'rules of proper behaviour ' who must always be obeyed, lest trouble be invoked.. ..

Often 'Just doing stuff' anyway, without clearance or 'approval' becomes like queue jumping, in the eyes of the women folk who are Unquestioningly Upholding The Norms.. ..

 

[newfhouse]

Rescinding Roe v Wade was never going to be enough for the theocrats.


View: https://twitter.com/ninaturner/status/1549726503763574784?s=21&t=zQHoBa60CmTW_Y4I-4Y6jA

 

[Unkraut]

There's not even good religious precedent for being anti abortion if religion is your thing..

https://theconversation.com/the-bib...-political-decision-not-a-biblical-one-185858

Did you ever look at the link to what 'Old Testament scholar John Collins' had to say in the above link? I doubt if it is possible to get it more wrong.

That may well be true, and if so should be challenged, and it would be nice if @Unkraut could explain why he is getting his information from such a source.

My views on abortion do not come from Doug Wilson or any other American. They were formed long before I had heard of them via the internet. (There is quite a bit about Wilson I have a problem with, but the attacks on him are often unhinged.)

Despite Mudsticks' link above there is a fairly standard exposition of the biblical text relevant to the discussion even if abortion is not directly mentioned, dealing with the humanity of the unborn child.

I also mentioned the talk I went to at university on the increasing cases of trauma women who had had abortions were suffering - nothing religious about that at all. Nor American! It was clearly a growing problem.

I also remember the testimony (in church) of a woman who had learned about sex from her father's porno magazines, by 16 she had countless men after her, and had 4 abortions. Counselling was minimal, if not non-existent. She went on to have a remarkable conversion to Christianity. I would describe her now as ransomed healed restored forgiven. Regarding the latter, abortion is not the unforgivable sin. She has spent the last 30 years or so helping women who have had abortions deal with the guilt when their conscience plagues them. The need to grieve. I hardly know her personally, but my sister does.

I don't know how widespread such trauma is, but likely more than is commonly supposed. The opposition of American pastors might well be in part because they have privately had to deal with this. And there are some very difficult moral dilemmas on the fringe of this debate.

Under Christian theology, a women who has consented to an abortion, and even more the attending physician has carried out something that is objectively morally wrong. A universal external standard has been broken that does not originate in subjective human thinking, where self is the point of reference. You won't agree with this (I would assume!), but I'm pointing it out to show why there can be no compromise on this issue. Two different and I would think diametrically opposed world views.

 

[mudsticks]

These are your pro-life people..

Threatening doctors, and their children ..

And trying to force pregnancy on a ten year old..

Utterly despicable.

All this is done in the name of 'Christianity' is it??

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/15/indiana-caitlin-bernard-doctor-abortion