Can the (Met) police ever change?

[mudsticks]

I would add candidate selection and training to that list.

Couldnt we have some more generalised training of men on how not to act like utter @rshols from a young age, too.?

They don't turn out like this by accident, sure we want to keep them out of the police as a baseline, but there's a lot more to it than that.

There's no need for misogynistic views or behaviour, they don't serve any purpose.
Quite the reverse.

But there still so much.in our 'culture' that says it's ok to regard women's rights, needs, concerns and safety, as of secondary importance.
The trash talkers influencing young people online for a start, who challenges them, really?

These wearyingly familiar cases of VAWAG both in and out of the police are portrayed as 'isolted aberrations' - unusual cases - not 'the norm'.

Whereas in reality they're not at all unusual.

 

[multitool]

Couldnt we have some more generalised training of men on how not to act like utter @rshols from a young age, too.?

They don't turn out like this by accident, sure we want to keep them out of the police as a baseline, but there's a lot more to it than that.

There's no need for misogynistic views or behaviour, they don't serve any purpose.
Quite the reverse.

But there still so much.in our 'culture' that says it's ok to regard women's rights, needs, concerns and safety, as of secondary importance.
The trash talkers influencing young people online for a start, who challenges them, really?

These wearyingly familiar cases of VAWAG both in and out of the police are portrayed as 'isolted aberrations' - unusual cases - not 'the norm'.

Whereas in reality they're not at all unusual.

Nobody ever answered the question of whether offences against women in the police constituency reflected offences in the population as a whole.

They probably do because these offences are not unusual. We react badly to these offences in the police for several reasons to which you alluded in an earlier post. The police are in a position of power and trust, and because of this have the capacity to do great harm as the gatekeepers to the criminal justice system. But the truth is these offences are everywhere.

 

[newfhouse]

Couldnt we have some more generalised training of men on how not to act like utter @rshols from a young age, too.?

They are recruiting now so need to select the best of those that apply, hopefully men and women that have been well brought up.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

The failure to suspend Carrick from duty or investigate him for misconduct despite multiple reports made by women matches a pattern we identified back in March 2020 in a police super-complaint on police-perpetrated domestic abuse.
At that time we were looking at a sample of 19 cases from police forces across the country. Since then, we have been contacted by nearly 200 women who were victims of domestic abuse or sexual offences by police officers. In most cases those women have told us of their fears of reporting the officer, the often inadequate investigations, their victimisation by the abuser’s colleagues and the revenge exacted on them though criminalisation or through the family courts, with those they accuse misusing their police powers. In at least one case it drove a women to take her own life.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-trust-met-police-david-carrick-sarah-everard

There’s also a shocking catalogue of reports of abuse in over 35 constabulary areas here at https://police-me-too.co.uk/. Same patterns of abuse and subsequent inaction.

 

[multitool]

I would add candidate selection and training to that list.

Sure, but when your recruitment pool is pretty small what do you do? As I said earlier (before getting my head shot off by mudsticks) not many of us would want to do this job, so we end up with what's left (mudsticks took exception to the phrase "we get the police force we deserve", but it's the same point)



Training is an interesting one, because the right-wing press is full of inflammatory and mocking reports about 'diversity officers' in public sector, without ever really considering that these roles are there to try and fix misogynistic or racist cultures.

 

[newfhouse]

Sure, but when your recruitment pool is pretty small what do you do? As I said earlier (before getting my head shot off by mudsticks) not many of us would want to do this job, so we end up with what's left

When the Home Sec demands that you recruit 20,000 additional officers in short order - as well as replacing those lost to retirement and so on - how easy is it to say that not enough applicants make the cut?

When they have been forced to sell off their training facilities and now have to contract out much of the induction and indoctrination of recruits, how likely is it that selection errors will be spotted before they are let loose on the streets?

 

[mudsticks]

There’s also a shocking catalogue of reports of abuse in over 35 constabulary areas here at https://police-me-too.co.uk/. Same patterns of abuse and subsequent inaction.

But we as women mustn't get at all angry or frustrated by this endless procession of deliberate brutality and abuse, which has been going on for years, and which has not been properly addressed, or even acknowledged ..

We must be endlessly understanding and tolerant and just accept the depressing grinding inevitability of it all -

- otherwise we're the ones who will end up being labelled 'unreasonable' right ??

 

[multitool]

There’s also a shocking catalogue of reports of abuse in over 35 constabulary areas here at https://police-me-too.co.uk/. Same patterns of abuse and subsequent inaction.

That's a pretty gross read. What stands out to me is that the majority of issues I read were single officers abusing their position to get contact and groom vulnerable women. I notice that one respondent said the grooming only stopped when she threatened to tell the officer's Chief Constable, in which case this doesn't sound like so much of a 'rotting from the top down' issue as an absolutely massive safeguarding failure.

These men (and some women) are doing this because the approach works for them. I wonder what internal regulations are in relation to having relationships with people they come into contact with during their police role and whether there is a whistle-blowing facility. It seems likely that there is a culture of trying to get a leg over amongst the lower ranks.

The obvious solution is more female officers, especially for jobs involving women. But this also needs an effective external investigation with a drive to root it out and look into their complaints system, because it cannot be fit for purpose if these female victims don't feel it is a worthwhile recourse.

 

[Deleted member 28]

The obvious solution is more female officers, especially for jobs involving women.

It does appear this is being attempted.
https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.amp...number-of-female-police-officers-figures-show

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't think they are skimping on vetting. It's actually pretty competitive to join the police; they aren't short of (on paper) quality candidates, certainly not in my area anyway. The nature of the vetting is fairly old school though - relatives who are criminal, checking references - thorough, but very much admin type checks. Perhaps they need to look at more psych tests that pick up on subtle signs of underlying attitudes rather than school and work references, which might well be glowing.

 

[mudsticks]

It does appear this is being attempted.
https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.amp...number-of-female-police-officers-figures-show

Shep's been hacked !!
He's posting links from the Graun.!!

Whatever next.??

 

[mudsticks]

I don't think they are skimping on vetting. It's actually pretty competitive to join the police; they aren't short of (on paper) quality candidates, certainly not in my area anyway. The nature of the vetting is fairly old school though - relatives who are criminal, checking references - thorough, but very much admin type checks. Perhaps they need to look at more psych tests that pick up on subtle signs of underlying attitudes rather than school and work references, which might well be glowing.

Even a quick skip through their social media might be enlightening..

 

[AuroraSaab]

Well exactly, though the smarter ones will have cleared out the dodgy stuff before applying. I think reviewing the criteria for dismissal would be a good place to start as a number of Chief Constables seem frustrated at being unable to sack officers they deem unfit.

 

[C R]

I don't think they are skimping on vetting. It's actually pretty competitive to join the police; they aren't short of (on paper) quality candidates, certainly not in my area anyway. The nature of the vetting is fairly old school though - relatives who are criminal, checking references - thorough, but very much admin type checks. Perhaps they need to look at more psych tests that pick up on subtle signs of underlying attitudes rather than school and work references, which might well be glowing.

I'm not sure that the current checking is that thorough. The constable that killed Dalian Atkinson had at least one conviction for theft that hadn't been flagged up when he joined West Mercia Constabulary.

Edited to clarify. The constable in question, Benjamin Monk, failed to declare two police cautions, not convictions, in his application to join the police. When that omission was noticed he was found guilty of gross misconduct, but was not dismissed. It is not clear to me how the initial vetting didn't find records of the cautions, and even worse, why he was allowed to keep his job despite the finding of gross misconduct.

 

[Bromptonaut]

..so does this mean that these teachers' colleagues will be cheering them on in the classroom? Do you think the paedo teachers boasted about it in the staffroom? Did colleagues cover up for them? Threatening whistle-blowers? Is there a culture of abuse in UK schools? Or is it, bluntly, just men in a position of power, abusing their immediate power?

Depends on the age of the student and the era.

I'm sure under 16s were always forbidden and any such thing denigrated.

I'm old enough to have been in 6th form when two or three girls (it was usually girls) in that cohort were going out with male teachers; typically guys of 23/4 in the first or second year in the profession. I suspect there was plenty of 'banter' from colleagues.....