Can the (Met) police ever change?

[C R]

Not really. Chuck a harmless bit of soft fruit at one and he and five of his mates will beat you about the head with a baton.

Sometimes you only need to walk past them minding your own business

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

 

[mudsticks]

You get problematic situations in all walks of life. You get doctors and nurses who murder patients. You get teachers who are nonces, whether in their schools or outside, you get accountants and solicitors who embezzle their clients' money, and so on.

if there were anything like the amount of murdery medics as the pols have abusers within their ranks - we'd all be dead by now -
(If we could ever get an appointment for the dastardly deed to be done that is)

We don't tend to label all the members of these professions on the basis of the behaviour of a minority of their colleagues. But then most of our contact with these professions is not when we are being held to account for a legal transgression nor as a victim where we cannot but help be disappointed with the outcomes for the perpetrator.

The police are an easy target. They do a very difficult job in situations that most of us reject, which is why the police struggle to recruit. People are always just waiting for the police to put a foot wrong and in some respects we get the police we deserve.

Neither i nor any other woman deserves to be 'policed' by abusive men, we've done absolutely nothing to draw that down onto ourselves.
The problem has been ignored and swept under the carpet in the police - as it has in wider society.

We deserve better - much better.

That isn't to deny structural problems within the police. It's just to point out that ACArentB, and the attitude that they are is not only born of ignorance but makes it all the more likely that the police distance themselves further from communities.

The attitude amongst some people in some communities that ACAB is born out of experience.
Experience of the police racism, violence, sexism, homophobia etc that those communities have suffered.

The police themselves acknowledge that too - that a lot of the trust has gone - that policing by consent is made harder by the polices own discriminatory and abusive actions.
Suggesting its the other way round just smacks of victim blaming - how many times are we supposed to forgive and forget?

They know they have to do better - oc better funding for them - and other services that would make their job less onerous in the first place would help.

 

[multitool]

You've taken a generalised point, applied it to specific group of people it was not intended to apply to, and run with it.

When I say we get the police we deserve, I'm saying 'who would do that job under those circumstances?' Would you? In other words, beat policing is a bit of a shitey job and it doesn't attract the crème of society. Notwithstanding that I wouldn't dispute the points you are making. It's all true, if a little ranty.

I know certain groups have fared badly at the hands of the police, because just as I'm old enough to remember Macpherson, I'm also old to remember Operation Countryman, and all the crap in between.

But I know, too, that ACArent B. I've had conversations with friends of mine in the police that leave me wondering how they don't have PTSD. For all the Wayne Couzens, and David Carricks there will be legions of incompetent officers, legions of mediocre officers, legions of good ones, and some outstanding ones.

 

[mudsticks]

You've taken a generalised point, applied it to specific group of people it was not intended to apply to, and run with it.

When I say we get the police we deserve, I'm saying 'who would do that job under those circumstances?' Would you? In other words, beat policing is a bit of a shitey job and it doesn't attract the crème of society.

Notwithstanding that I wouldn't dispute the points you are making.

Then that's not what we deserve then is it ??
Maybe what you meant was that in your view being a beat officer is a low status - not very nice job.
I'm sure it could be made better - having the respect and consent of the majority of the members of society would help - the police haven't helped themselves at all to that end.

And that's on them.

Particularly where it concerns 'specific groups' eg women, poc, lgbtq community and so on.

Thats a pretty big section of society they've managed to alienate - right there.

 

[BoldonLad]

Is it allowable for police officers to reflect societal norms for all crimes or only sexual violence?

I didn't say it was allowable for sexual violence, so, why would I think it acceptable for any other type/group of crimes?

The point in pondering the statistics (even allowing for their questionable accuracy, as highlighted by @Bazzer ), was, on my part, the thought that, perhaps, potential perpetrators of crimes of a sexual nature are attracted to a particular career sector.

Not really much chance of solving a problem, unless we identify as much as we can about the causes (in my none expert humble opinion of course).

 

[BoldonLad]

According to Rape Crisis, there are 618,000 reports of rape a year, so that's one per 108 head of population. There are 32,000 in the Met Police, but I've not seen over what period the compalints were made.

(Tangentially, I know someone who was raped, she said the police were very good with her, and it was Rape Crisis who were making her feel like it was her own fault.)

That depends whether they're watching it happen and turning a blind eye. In the case of the NHS there are those who publically admit the lying and cover ups are endemic, so once people see that it's openly acknowledged and nothing gets done about it, that's a green light for murder. As an outsider, you might find that your view of it would be somewhat different if it were you that's been harmed by them.

Yes, the figures as presented, do not allow comparison, for several reasons, including, but, not limited to the nature of the offences (for example, the BBC quoted figures, I believe, included more than instances of rape, but also included domestic violence, for example). In addition, of course, as @Bazzer indicates, we have the problem of reporting accuracy/completeness.

I wasn't suggesting the statistics would mitigate the problem, I was pondering, could they increase our understanding of how to solve the problem.

 

[BoldonLad]

Not really. Chuck a harmless bit of soft fruit at one and he and five of his mates will beat you about the head with a baton.

Should it be acceptable to throw "a harmless bit of soft fruit" (or any thing else), at anyone?

Personally, I rather like the idea of being able to walk along the street without being harassed, abused, assaulted, or, having objects thrown at me.

 

[multitool]

Then that's not what we deserve then is it ??

Maybe what you meant was that in your view being a beat officer is a low status - not very nice job.

I'm sure it could be made better - having the respect and consent of the majority of the members of society would help - the police haven't helped themselves at all to that end.

And that's on them.

Particularly where it concerns 'specific groups' eg women, poc, lgbtq community and so on.

Thats a pretty big section of society they've managed to alienate - right there.

Assuming that they have alienated the entirety of "women, poc, lgbtq community" which, of course, they haven't.

"We" means us. All of us. Society. We are the people who voted* in a government that slashed police numbers. That allowed social and psychiatric care to crumble to the point that the police are now de facto psychiatric nurses. That decimated youth provision. And so on. It is us that deem it culturally acceptable to render ourselves brainless zombies on the nation's streets on a weekend evening and soak up the capacity of the police service snd health care.

I'm not taking a narrow view.

*and yes it was us, even if you didn't vote, or you didn't take an active part in advocating for an alternative.

 

[Ian H]

I think you'd need an external body with serious powers to reform the police. They can't do it themselves.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Agreed. This is the problem when something needs investigating - a neighbouring force is called in. They might well be objective but public confidence is so low we need a regulatory body outside the police to do it.

Fair to say funding factors are also an issue. Police funding was cut hugely a decade ago and never really put back. Support staff were cut to the bone in some areas. It's not money that changes the culture of sexism and racism that you find within some sectors of the police but it has a knock on effect on things like victim support. Who wants to wait 2 years for their rapist to see the inside of a courtroom?

 

[multitool]

I think you'd need an external body with serious powers to reform the police. They can't do it themselves.

The truth is it needs a public inquiry to diagnose the problem first. It took 4 years after the Lawrence murder to even establish an inquiry (Labour gov, the Tories ignored it) and another 2 to publish the report.

 

[mudsticks]

Assuming that they have alienated the entirety of "women, poc, lgbtq community" which, of course, they haven't.

"We" means us. All of us. Society. We are the people who voted* in a government that slashed police numbers. That allowed social and psychiatric care to crumble to the point that the police are now de facto psychiatric nurses. That decimated youth provision. And so on. It is us that deem it culturally acceptable to render ourselves brainless zombies on the nation's streets on a weekend evening and soak up the capacity of the police service snd health care.

I'm not taking a narrow view.

*and yes it was us, even if you didn't vote, or you didn't take an active part in advocating for an alternative.

They've alienated a very large number of those people - by their own inactions and inactions - what proportion of those groups is it acceptable to you that they alienate ??

I can assure you i didn't vote for anything remotely approaching the Tories - and yes i advocated very strongly and actively for the alternative - always have done.

But even if i hadn't done all that, i should still as a woman be able to trust that the police are safe to be around, particularly if I'm in a vulnerable situation.

Is it my, or any other womans fault if i don't particularly??
Or is that down to the behaviour of quite a large number of the police themselves?

This thread is largely about police behaviour and attitude towards women (and to an extent towards poc as well) thats its 'narrow' view -
But it would still seem that how safe, or unsafe women feel around the police is of rather marginal interest - despite our being a whole half of society .

 

[multitool]

what proportion of those groups is it acceptable to you that they alienate ??

Strawman, well done.

I can assure you i didn't vote for anything remotely approaching the Tories - and yes i advocated very strongly and actively for the alternative - always have done.

It's not about you, mudsticks.

Is it my, or any other womans fault if i don't particularly??
Or is that down to the behaviour of quite a large number of the police themselves?

No. Yes.

This thread is largely about police behaviour and attitude towards women (and to an extent towards poc as well) thats its 'narrow' view -
But it would still seem that how safe, or unsafe women feel around the police is of rather marginal interest - despite our being a whole half of society .

No it isn't really, because "the police" aren't a hivemind. Its about several things; vetting of recruits, continued vetting of serving officers, and it's about fighting pockets of misogyny. Its mostly about systems (and probably finance) and as IanH says it will probably take an external body with teeth to do something about it, and as I said it's unlikely to happen under the current government.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Not really. Chuck a harmless bit of soft fruit at one and he and five of his mates will beat you about the head with a baton.

Riposte of the week!

 

[mudsticks]

Strawman, well done.



It's not about you, mudsticks.



No. Yes.



No it isn't really, because "the police" aren't a hivemind. Its about several things; vetting of recruits, continued vetting of serving officers, and it's about fighting pockets of misogyny. Its mostly about systems (and probably finance) and as IanH says it will probably take an external body with teeth to do something about it, and as I said it's unlikely to happen under the current government.

Nope its not a strawman - you countered that the police hadn't alienated everyone from those groups, as if therefore it wasn't really significant that they'd alienated so many of them.


Actually as it happens it is about me - and all the other mes who happen to be women who happen not to trust the police around us, particularly if we are in a state of vulnerability, and that mistrust absolutely comes about because of the polices actions.

Actions and inactions documented in this very long and hard to stomach thread.

Thats pretty impactful personally, to me, and to other women.
Its not just something to chat about in idle moments of theoretical speculation.

But as it is, i used the word 'me' because you used the word 'you' in relation to wider political action, or inaction in the first place.

The police may not be a 'hivemind' but they certainly have a 'culture' - their attitude to women particularly vulnerable women has a long and not brilliant history when it comes to womankind - sadly it reflects the attitude of the rest of society of course - this is not 'new' stuff.

But we might hope that the police could be expected to do at least a little better on average at setting an example of good behaviour rather than - as seems to be the case at the moment - rather worse.