Cut parents benefits over school truancy

[Deleted member 28]

It's a negative feedback loop which benefits no one - except maybe shareholders of 'Cerco' - or whoever has prison contracts nowadays.

No criminals when Labour were last in then?

14 prisons out of 140 odd are private.

 

[mudsticks]

No criminals when Labour were last in then?

14 prisons out of 140 odd are private.

Sorry Shep, no one can say I haven't tried over the years.

But trying to 'debate' anything with someone of such a reductive, simplistic, 'all or nothing' mindset such as you seem to possess is utterly pointless.

I really don't have the time or energy for it.

I'm tempted to invoke one of my 'tackling a milky pudding' allegories, for the benefit of our chimp friend, but until I see some cold hard cash for that ...

 

[Electric_Andy]

Noone is saying that criminals don't exist under whatever party is in power, but it's how those criminals get there that's the issue. I've seen it myself, kids get failed by the system because there are not enough staff, and there are not enough staff because they're all stressed and overworked, and underpaid (IMO) for what they do. And it gets like that because mental health services have been cut drastically, as have social services and all the rest of these bods who are supposed to be there to help. But they can't help because they are spread too thin.

I'm glad @shep that you have not had any issues yourself with these sorts of things, but there are a lot of kids and adults out there who are doing their best and really struggling. Some of them either give up, or get to the stage that they're beyond help and fall into crime. Or have such deep rooted issues that they live a violent or irresponsible life because they weren't helped from the start.

It's easy to say "well kids just need discipline, I blame the parents". But many parents are doing all they can, like my partner, and it still isn't enough. It also grinds the carer down as well, so now you have 2 people requiring help from our public services, when they can't even provide for 1.

I'm voting Labour next time, it's a stab in the dark as to whether any newly elected party will make significant positive change, and how long that could take, but nothing is ever going to change under the Tories

 

[Deleted member 28]

Sorry Shep, no one can say I haven't tried over the years.

But trying to 'debate' anything with someone of such a reductive, simplistic, 'all or nothing' mindset such as you seem to possess is utterly pointless.

I really don't have the time or energy for it.

I'm tempted to invoke one of my 'tackling a milky pudding' allegories, for the benefit of our chimp friend, but until I see some cold hard cash for that ...

You haven't got to 'try' anything with me dear, you can't just blurt sh*t out reference shareholders etc when it's a tiny minority that are privately owned without some comeback and equally don't make out everything in the country is solely down to the Tories.

Simplistic and 'all or nothing' mindset?

Unlike you then?

 

[icowden]

Why 'more' criminals?

Because more people are classified as criminals instead of mentally ill.

Oh, that's right it's solely the governments fault people commit crime.

Well yes. They define the laws which define what crime is. If you decriminalise drugs for example you reduce the crime rate as it is no longer illegal to take, buy or sell drugs.

I really can't wait for Labour to get the crime rates down.

Well - they did last time by stopping people from committing crime in the first place. I can see that you have never met someone who has been addicted to drugs or alcohol. I have, and I can tell you that earlier mental health intervention would have saved the addict from losing his house, prevented a number of petty thefts and considerable anguish. Happily this chap did manage to get an intervention and is now living his best life, drug and alcohol free. Not everyone is so lucky and many are sent to prison instead of a centre dealing with addiction.

 

[Deleted member 28]

I'm voting Labour next time,

Please don't tell me you voted Tory last time?

In which case you get everything you deserve, apparently?

 

[Deleted member 28]

Because more people are classified as criminals instead of mentally ill.

Well yes. They define the laws which define what crime is. If you decriminalise drugs for example you reduce the crime rate as it is no longer illegal to take, buy or sell drugs.

Well - they did last time by stopping people from committing crime in the first place. I can see that you have never met someone who has been addicted to drugs or alcohol. I have, and I can tell you that earlier mental health intervention would have saved the addict from losing his house, prevented a number of petty thefts and considerable anguish. Happily this chap did manage to get an intervention and is now living his best life, drug and alcohol free. Not everyone is so lucky and many are sent to prison instead of a centre dealing with addiction.

Always someone else's fault!!

You've lost me a bit on the drugs thing, who did what last time?

You want the use of hard drugs decriminalising?

I know a few pi$$heads but they're not criminals or 'mentally ill' as far as I can tell they just let the drink beat them

 

[Electric_Andy]

Please don't tell me you voted Tory last time?

In which case you get everything you deserve, apparently?

When i vote for a particular party, you have to see what their main policies are and hope that they deliver on them. It has become very clear, very quickly, that most of the Tories are lining their pockets and just throwing sound bites out to the public.

Back on topic, what do you think about what I wrote in my post re: how people get to be criminals, and how cutting child benefit for truancy is going to help no-one at all?

 

[icowden]

Always someone else's fault!!
You've lost me a bit on the drugs thing, who did what last time?
You want the use of hard drugs decriminalising?

I'll try again.

A significant amount of the prison population are there due to mental health issues such as addiction to drugs and alcohol. You start off with a job and doing some coke on the weekends, drinking every night with your mates, and then suddenly you start getting short of cash but you still need a fix, so you nick some booze from the off-license etc - soon you have drunk the house, no-one likes you any more and you have no job, so you start mugging people, stealing more etc.

Many people in that situation need help, not punishment. Intervention early on to get them off drugs and alcohol, to find them a safe space to live, to improve their sense of self worth and get them back into employment is very successful. Not for everyone, but for many.

By defunding Mental Health services you make it harder for these people to have a chance of recovery and thus they continue to be a drain on the system instead of paying into it through taxes.

And yes, I would decriminalise all drugs. I would make them available at cost price from legal outlets. This allows for engagement with mental health services to try to get people to stop taking drugs, it also completely destroys trade for the drug barons and wipes out a huge criminal network that relies on selling illegal drugs. If it's cheaper and easy to get your fix from Boots than dodgy Dave, dodgy Dave is out of a job as is Mafia Mike.

 

[Deleted member 28]

And yes, I would decriminalise all drugs. I would make them available at cost price from legal outlets. This allows for engagement with mental health services to try to get people to stop taking drugs, it also completely destroys trade for the drug barons and wipes out a huge criminal network that relies on selling illegal drugs. If it's cheaper and easy to get your fix from Boots than dodgy Dave, dodgy Dave is out of a job as is Mafia Mike.

At this point I have to seriously question your sanity, you would be happy for your kids to become hooked on coke, heroine or spice as long as it was affordable and of a good quality?

Maybe lay off the reefer a bit pal.

 

[icowden]

At this point I have to seriously question your sanity, you would be happy for your kids to become hooked on coke, heroine or spice as long as it was affordable and of a good quality?

Of course not. But if they were hooked I'd prefer that they were sourcing their drugs where they haven't been contaminated and where they have to engage with Mental Health Services to get themselves off drugs.

I think you may be confusing decriminalising drugs with legalising them. There is a difference. Decriminalisation means that the user no longer gets treated as a criminal, only the dealers. You then eliminate the dealers by the state becoming the dealer, and in turn you also control the market.

 

[BoldonLad]

Cutting investment is a fundamental Tory policy on just about all services though, isn't it.?

It's not some outlying policy that sits on the fringes of an otherwise basically acceptable manifesto.

It's what they're about, it's their 'ethos' .

So no it's not at all 'lunacy' to say that if you vote Tory, you vote for impoverished public services, and all the knock on consequences of that.

I didn't say that. My point was that in almost every case, a voter would disagree with SOME aspect of a given candidates' party's policies.

 

[BoldonLad]

@mudsticks got there before me. Of course it would be lunacy to say that someone necessarily supports every policy of a particular party. However in the case of the current Conservative party, their policies all overlap to do the same thing. If you like what they are doing, then you must accept that the net result is more criminals and a higher prison population which is costing more tax to maintain.

As I have already replied to @mudsticks , my point was, as you now agree, few if any voters agree with every policy of a given party.

I didn't say I agreed with Conservative Policies, and, I didn't say I voted for them.

 

[BoldonLad]

Why 'more' criminals?

Oh, that's right it's solely the governments fault people commit crime.

I really can't wait for Labour to get the crime rates down.

Please Shep, don't hold your breath whilst waiting

 

[BoldonLad]

I'll try again.

A significant amount of the prison population are there due to mental health issues such as addiction to drugs and alcohol. You start off with a job and doing some coke on the weekends, drinking every night with your mates, and then suddenly you start getting short of cash but you still need a fix, so you nick some booze from the off-license etc - soon you have drunk the house, no-one likes you any more and you have no job, so you start mugging people, stealing more etc.

Many people in that situation need help, not punishment. Intervention early on to get them off drugs and alcohol, to find them a safe space to live, to improve their sense of self worth and get them back into employment is very successful. Not for everyone, but for many.

By defunding Mental Health services you make it harder for these people to have a chance of recovery and thus they continue to be a drain on the system instead of paying into it through taxes.

And yes, I would decriminalise all drugs. I would make them available at cost price from legal outlets. This allows for engagement with mental health services to try to get people to stop taking drugs, it also completely destroys trade for the drug barons and wipes out a huge criminal network that relies on selling illegal drugs. If it's cheaper and easy to get your fix from Boots than dodgy Dave, dodgy Dave is out of a job as is Mafia Mike.

I think I may be beginning to agree with you, reduced price Alcohol, I may even take up smoking tobacco