Death penalty

[AuroraSaab]

Roy Meadow was an 'expert' witness who wasn't an expert.

I was thinking more of dna type forensics stuff but I take your point. I'm not in favour of the death penalty in principle, regardless of how secure the conviction is.

Aside from other objections, there would be no incentive for an accused to cooperate with the police in terms of locating bodies or admitting other crimes if execution was the automatic punishment.

 

[Unkraut]

That’s [How about the death penalty is to show the value of human life?] such a crazy, self-defeating argument that I have nothing to add.



Who executes the executioners?

The eye for an eye principle is to ensure the punishment fits the crime. That it is neither excessive nor too lenient. How much burglary, bullion raids and stealing Botticelli's would you have to do in order to serve the same sentence as for murder? If you can work that out you can in a sense put a financial value on human life.

To use an extreme example, the 21 years plus further detention if deemed to be a danger to the public hardly seems like justice for the victims of the Norwegian murderer Breivik. It doesn't seem like justice for taking one life.

Judicial execution is not murder. If you want to take the view all killing of human life is murder except in self-defence then most soldiers who have fought in wars would count as murderers as well.

I doubt if capital punishment will actually ever be reintroduced, but that there continue to be calls for it shows some unease at the current regime in dealing with murder.

 

[multitool]

There are always calls for the return of capital punishment and weirdly it always comes from the right-wing, as do most calls for harsher punishments.

This is not coincidence. Crime is heavily associated with poverty and deprivation and, in general, those on the right like to deny that it is in part a structural problem and is purely individual.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The eye for an eye principle is to ensure the punishment fits the crime. That it is neither excessive nor too lenient.

I would think for many families no punishment would fit the crime, though I acknowledge that for some execution brings a sense of closure that imprisonment doesn't. IIRC Ted Bundy tried to negotiate removing the death penalty in exchange for giving the location of some victim's remains. The families involved declined.

Personally, I think nowadays the whole life tariff is a sufficient replacement for capital punishment for the most heinous crimes. It meets most of what execution provided from the system in terms of a sense of justice, deterrent, and protection. You could argue whether it is used enough/too much but you could say the same of capital punishment.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Not all murderers do spend the rest of their lives in prison though, why is that fair?

 

[AuroraSaab]

No, it's often not fair all. I think it's more a good argument for longer sentences or more whole life tarrifs than a good argument for restoring capital punishment though.

 

[winjim]

Not all murderers do spend the rest of their lives in prison though, why is that fair?

Is it fair that a young person guilty of murder may spend seventy or so years in prison while an older person may spend as little as ten or fifteen?

Personally I think that everybody deserves a shot at redemption. Now it may be that for some people that should happen within the prison system but the idea that we as a society might decide to simply give up on people is a gloomy prospect indeed.

 

[multitool]

No, it's often not fair all. I think it's more a good argument for longer sentences or more whole life tarrifs than a good argument for restoring capital punishment though.

A lot of people don't really understand the ramifications of a life sentence, even if a prisoner is released after 15 years.

 

[albion]

Yes, right wing. It happens in symmetry. As deprivation increases so does Tory desperation.
That must be how populism works.

 

[icowden]

Not all murderers do spend the rest of their lives in prison though, why is that fair?

If they have a whole life tariff, their sentence doesn't go away when they leave prison, any more than it does for someone granted parole, or who leaves prison after serving 2/3rds of their sentence. The point is not to spend as much money on people who are no longer a threat to the public. Instead those people are monitored, their behaviour may be curfewed (you may not go here, you may not go out after x o'clock etc) as needed. They are not off scot-free.

The point of prison in the UK is to punish and reform the prisoner. Solely punitive justice systems don't work well. See the USA for more details. The highest rate of incarceration in the world and yet nowhere near the lowest crime rate.

 

[Xipe Totec]

The eye for an eye principle

Now I'm no expert, but doesn't that come out of the same book as "thou shalt not kill"?

 

[newfhouse]

Now I'm no expert, but doesn't that come out of the same book as "thou shalt not kill"?

I think it’s in the bit where killing or enslaving people from different tribes is encouraged, so it’s probably allowable.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Ahh, but you overlook the sporting aspect of forum life. It is thus...

Shep crafts the most inane and dunderheaded political commentary he can, ensuring that he carefully excludes facts, as facts are easily countered, and lays an emotive trap for the other protagonists.
The job of his protagonists is to skilfuly avoid his traps but at the same time profer cultured abuse that cannot be seen to be discriminatory.

Hopefully someone will try that one day.

 

[multitool]

Bet you are fun at parties

 

[Rusty Nails]

Bet you are fun at parties

That depends on the party, and the games played.

Not too keen on this one.