F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[MrGrumpy]

They're trying some stuff out. Trans people are told they have to be excluded from some races. They are told that in order to race they will need to think about reorganising the classification system. So they do exactly that and still get shat on.

The organisers have said they recognise it's not perfect, they have said they welcome feedback, but instead they get a pile on from a bunch of transphobes who've probably never been to a crit race in their life.

if the rules were laid out and all that entered where happy with it , bash on . However that’s a different thing altogether when it comes to professional female sport .

 

[AuroraSaab]

I only picked ThunderCrit because it was literally the other day. I could have used Jane Page who came 2nd to a transwoman cyclist in April as an example. She wasn't happy.

Or any of the women listed here. I can't vouch for the accuracy without checking every single entry but it seems legit:

https://www.redstatefeminists.org/shewon/index.html#submit

Perhaps people would feel differently if it wasn't women. There would rightfully be outrage if a book prize only open to black authors was now open to anyone who identified as black, whether it was an amateur prize or not.

 

[winjim]

Did they? Or did they just get some criticism pointing out the inequality shown by the results? How did they demonstrate that the people "piling on" were transphobes? Did they actively post hateful and malicious text, or just challenge whether it really worked given the result?

The label "transphobe" is used too readily to mean "anyone who disagrees with what I think".

Sometimes I have races with my 3yo. I have to let him win, he gets pissy if I don't.

If you have a trans inclusive race, sometimes trans people are going to win.

And yes, reading the comments on twitter it has been a transphobic pile on. It could have been a thoughtful discussion within the bike racing community but...

 

[winjim]

if the rules were laid out and all that entered where happy with it , bash on . However that’s a different thing altogether when it comes to professional female sport .

Indeed.

 

[icowden]

Perhaps people would feel differently if it wasn't women. There would rightfully be outrage if a book prize only open to black authors was now open to anyone who identified as black, whether it was an amateur prize or not.

Indeed, I saw quite a few times regarding the Abortion legislation in America the thought that if it was men who had to push babies out of the end of their dangly bit, there would be a drive-thru Abortion Clinic on every corner...

Similarly, if it were the other way round and women routinely out performed men in athletic events, would the men's events be protected?

 

[icowden]

Sometimes I have races with my 3yo. I have to let him win, he gets pissy if I don't.

C'mon Jim. Man up - he has to learn sometime :-)

If you have a trans inclusive race, sometimes trans people are going to win.

I'd go so far as to say that if you have a trans inclusive race, then trans people are always going to win unless it is trans men competing against men, where they can hope to come in the top 200-400...

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't think comparing the feelings of female athletes to stroppy toddlers is helpful. Women athletes have a right to a fair chance to achieve success, whatever the level of competition, and not be displaced by males who cannot successfully compete in their own sex class. But hey, suck it up girls, life's not fair, and we shouldn't try to make it so..... not a great message to girls and young women imo. Perhaps you don't have daughters.

Maybe your son gets pissy because he realises he has no realistic chance of winning against someone with such an innate physical advantage as an adult male. It's a shame you can't see the parallels.

 

[Xipe Totec]

...the Conservative politician and right-wing culture warrior Suella Braverman is not engaged in attempting to provoke thoughtful and measured discussion on gender recognition, womens' rights and the trans debate in general. What she's doing is trying to whip up anger, resentment and division, aware as she is that this can be a highly polarising topic for people on the Left.

QED.

 

[winjim]

I don't think comparing the feelings of female athletes to stroppy toddlers is helpful. Women athletes have a right to a fair chance to achieve success, whatever the level of competition, and not be displaced by males who cannot successfully compete in their own sex class. But hey, suck it up girls, life's not fair, and we shouldn't try to make it so..... not a great message to girls and young women imo. Perhaps you don't have daughters.

Maybe your son gets pissy because he realises he has no realistic chance of winning against someone with such an innate physical advantage as an adult male. It's a shame you can't see the parallels.

I kind of feel you've been putting women down yourself.
You suggested that the women entering the clearly advertised as trans inclusive event did not realise it was trans inclusive.
You suggested that they were too scared after the fact to bring it up.
You suggested that I listen to women.

I did listen to them. I posted quotes from the cis women involved where they said they were perfectly happy with the event and with the result and were upset that it was being used to further a transphobic agenda.

They knew what the event was, they knew what the entry criteria were, they are supportive of their trans colleagues, they are happy with the result.

Perhaps I don't have daughters. Perhaps I do. Perhaps I only think I do.

But whatever the gender of my children, I do try to teach them that not everything has to be ultra competitive, winning isn't everything, and sometimes it's fun to just go out and play with your friends.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Quick one but when did we start adding CIS into gender ? Was this too highlight the difference between trans or otherwise?

 

[winjim]

Quick one but when did we start adding CIS into gender ? Was this too highlight the difference between trans or otherwise?

I wonder when it did start? It just comes naturally to me now.

 

[icowden]

Quick one but when did we start adding CIS into gender ? Was this too highlight the difference between trans or otherwise?

Useful article here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

But yes, cis is the latin antonym for trans. It's become a thing in the last couple of years although wiki says that it first started to become prominent in 2015.

 

[Bromptonaut]

It doesn't matter how you present it, the world by and large is happy to help people suffering from mental illness whereby they feel they need to live as another gender. Some people are threatened by it just as they are threatened by the concept of homosexuality. It is not maligning the Trans community to say that there need to be some limits in order to protect other groups. Equality is not making one group more equal than others.

Gender dysphoria is not, according to the NHS, a mental illness.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

 

[MrGrumpy]

Useful article here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

But yes, cis is the latin antonym for trans. It's become a thing in the last couple of years although wiki says that it first started to become prominent in 2015.

Oh I did look it up but it’s not something that I’d refer to myself .

 

[AuroraSaab]

I kind of feel you've been putting women down yourself.
You suggested that the women entering the clearly advertised as trans inclusive event did not realise it was trans inclusive.
You suggested that they were too scared after the fact to bring it up.
You suggested that I listen to women.

I did listen to them. I posted quotes from the cis women involved where they said they were perfectly happy with the event and with the result and were upset that it was being used to further a transphobic agenda.

They knew what the event was, they knew what the entry criteria were, they are supportive of their trans colleagues, they are happy with the result.

Perhaps I don't have daughters. Perhaps I do. Perhaps I only think I do.

But whatever the gender of my children, I do try to teach them that not everything has to be ultra competitive, winning isn't everything, and sometimes it's fun to just go out and play with your friends.

The woman you quoted was Jo Smith who came third. She is part of the group who actually organised the ThunderCrit competition so of course she's on board with it. She has made her Twitter feed public again - I'm not seeing any of the abuse you said she was getting on it.

Women who object to males competing in the female category are afraid to speak out. They lose places in teams, scholarships, sponsors, and face abuse. It's only retired athletes and coaches like Navratilova, Sharon Davies, and Linda Blade who can stomach the fight. Who can blame them?

If it was just about playing with your friends we wouldn't be having this discussion.