F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[winjim]

If only it were so pure and simple.

It is. It really is.

'Look, this nice and inclusive thing involving trans people happened which literally everyone involved is cool and happy with and nobody knew or cared about until the transphobes piled on and which the organisers have asked not be used to further any bullshit transphobic narrative but here I am using it to further my bullshit transphobic narrative.'

It was a really shitty thing to bring up.

 

[Deleted member 28]

It is. It really is.

'Look, this nice and inclusive thing involving trans people happened which literally everyone involved is cool and happy with and nobody knew or cared about until the transphobes piled on and which the organisers have asked not be used to further any bullshit transphobic narrative but here I am using it to further my bullshit transphobic narrative.'

It was a really shitty thing to bring up.

You a bit of a closet transgender there Jimmy boy?

All power to you if you are, by the way.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I've said that the Thundercrit organisers are free to set whatever categories they like as it's a privately organised event. You can't deny though that 2 years ago, out of 6 podium places in the 2 races, 3 places would have gone to women. This year only one woman got a podium place. They could have had an Open category for inclusivity purposes and protected the Women's race.

Whether men should be in women's sports is 'nuanced and complex' (your words). To point out the real life ramifications of including them is 'transphobic ... pure and simple' (also your words).

 

[winjim]

I've said that the Thundercrit organisers are free to set whatever categories they like as it's a privately organised event. You can't deny though that 2 years ago, out of 6 podium places in the 2 races, 3 places would have gone to women. This year only one woman got a podium place. They could have had an Open category for inclusivity purposes and protected the Women's race.

Whether men should be in women's sports is 'nuanced and complex' (your words). To point out the real life ramifications of including them is 'transphobic ... pure and simple' (also your words).

No. Banging on about a minor fixed wheel crit with an experimental classification structure like it's the farking olympics or something is transphobic.

Yeah, it's nuanced and complex so here's a group acknowledging the nuances and complexities and exploring ways to be inclusive amongst their own little community and the transphobes are still not happy.

Seriously, how many of the people shitting on this race gave a single flying fark about amateur fixed wheel crit racing until two days ago?) Just leave people alone and let them ride their bikes.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Lots of people care about the principle of fairness, whether it's in sport or elsewhere. Doesn't matter whether it's the Olympics or an amateur competition. ThunderCrit is hardly a park fun run. It has some high profile sponsors and attracts entrants from abroad.

You can handwave it away as much ado about nothing if you like but the issues remain.

 

[BoldonLad]

Lots of people care about the principle of fairness, whether it's in sport or elsewhere. Doesn't matter whether it's the Olympics or an amateur competition. ThunderCrit is hardly a park fun run. It has some high profile sponsors and attracts entrants from abroad.

You can handwave it away as much ado about nothing if you like but the issues remain.

Indeed, isn't this one of the principle themes of this forum?

 

[winjim]

Lots of people care about the principle of fairness, whether it's in sport or elsewhere. Doesn't matter whether it's the Olympics or an amateur competition. ThunderCrit is hardly a park fun run. It has some high profile sponsors and attracts entrants from abroad.

You can handwave it away as much ado about nothing if you like but the issues remain.

I care about fairness and the massive pile on that Thundercrit have had to endure is not fair at all. It's transphobic bullshit and bringing it in the discussion on this thread is transphobic bullshit just as much as you saying you didn't want to turn this into a discussion on transgender issues was clearly transphobic bullshit.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Standing up for women does not equal transphobia, however many times you put that word in a sentence. You think ThunderCrit being criticised is more grievous than them reducing opportunities for women. Thanks for making that clear.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Perhaps a change of name, Thunderclit maybe?

 

[icowden]

'Look, this nice and inclusive thing involving trans people happened which literally everyone involved is cool and happy with and nobody knew or cared about until the transphobes piled on and which the organisers have asked not be used to further any bullshit transphobic narrative but here I am using it to further my bullshit transphobic narrative.'

Yes, the nice and inclusive thing happened. There were two categories with prizes for the top 3 athletes in each category.
It was so inclusive that out of 6 prizes only 1 was won by a cis:woman.

Is that still inclusive? Or is the inclusivity excluding a sector of the racers?...

You can be inclusive, but if you are excluding a sector of your membership by putting them up against racers that biologically they cannot ever properly compete against, is that still inclusive?

Personally I would say not.

As @AuroraSaab said, it will be interesting to see how the numbers in the "lightning" category are affected. For the average cyclist, of course it won't make a difference but for those competing at the top end, do you not see how they might find it a little frustrating to be excluded?

Going forward perhaps they will take on board that the trans women need to be seeded differently given their unfair advantage over the cis:women. But it is a race, and a race you cannot win because of your biological gender isn't a race anymore.

 

[icowden]

Standing up for women does not equal transphobia, however many times you put that word in a sentence. You think ThunderCrit being criticised is more grievous than them reducing opportunities for women. Thanks for making that clear.

It's important to note that discussion of Trans rights and womens rights is always open and never subject to people wanting to close down the discussion cos just discussing it is transphobia...

 

[winjim]

Standing up for women does not equal transphobia, however many times you put that word in a sentence. You think ThunderCrit being criticised is more grievous than them reducing opportunities for women. Thanks for making that clear.

No, I think you bringing it specifically into this thread the way you did is rank transphobia.

 

[icowden]

No, I think you bringing it specifically into this thread the way you did is rank transphobia.

Sorry Jim, but @AuroraSaab responded to a point raised by @theclaud around legislation in the US requiring genital inspection of school age athletes and used Thundercrit as an example where biological women are being disenfranchised by the Trans inclusion agenda.

I don't see how that is transphobic. No-one on this thread has said that Trans women should not be able to participate in sport, should not be supported, should not be treated with respect, should not be entitled to live their lives as they need or want to. What some of us have said is tha this should not be at the expense of biological women.

It doesn't matter how you present it, the world by and large is happy to help people suffering from mental illness whereby they feel they need to live as another gender. Some people are threatened by it just as they are threatened by the concept of homosexuality. It is not maligning the Trans community to say that there need to be some limits in order to protect other groups. Equality is not making one group more equal than others.

 

[winjim]

Yes, the nice and inclusive thing happened. There were two categories with prizes for the top 3 athletes in each category.
It was so inclusive that out of 6 prizes only 1 was won by a cis:woman.

Is that still inclusive? Or is the inclusivity excluding a sector of the racers?...

You can be inclusive, but if you are excluding a sector of your membership by putting them up against racers that biologically they cannot ever properly compete against, is that still inclusive?

Personally I would say not.

As @AuroraSaab said, it will be interesting to see how the numbers in the "lightning" category are affected. For the average cyclist, of course it won't make a difference but for those competing at the top end, do you not see how they might find it a little frustrating to be excluded?

Going forward perhaps they will take on board that the trans women need to be seeded differently given their unfair advantage over the cis:women. But it is a race, and a race you cannot win because of your biological gender isn't a race anymore.

They're trying some stuff out. Trans people are told they have to be excluded from some races. They are told that in order to race they will need to think about reorganising the classification system. So they do exactly that and still get shat on.

The organisers have said they recognise it's not perfect, they have said they welcome feedback, but instead they get a pile on from a bunch of transphobes who've probably never been to a crit race in their life.

 

[icowden]

The organisers have said they recognise it's not perfect, they have said they welcome feedback, but instead they get a pile on from a bunch of transphobes who've probably never been to a crit race in their life.

Did they? Or did they just get some criticism pointing out the inequality shown by the results? How did they demonstrate that the people "piling on" were transphobes? Did they actively post hateful and malicious text, or just challenge whether it really worked given the result?

The label "transphobe" is used too readily to mean "anyone who disagrees with what I think".