Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 121]

Why am I only seeing these debates come up after been alive for over 40 years? How can we ever heal society when more & more complex issues keep arising. We are just becoming more separated into tribes.

You're not though. Just being gay was difficult for society not all that long ago.

 

[multitool]

You're not though. Just being gay was difficult for society not all that long ago.

This is true. I would say, however, that homophobia was entrenched in society and reinforced by law in that for anybody pre '67, gay men were criminals. Obviously that prejudice did not disappear overnight after decriminalisation.

Transphobia is a little different in that it is more rarified as a social phenomenon. There is a concerted attempt to introduce and reinforce it, which was not the case with homophobia, at least in recent history. The only place most people 'see' trans people is on social media, and of course transphobes very carefully curate their libraries of images of the trans to make sure we only see the ones who are a bit icky.

 

[icowden]

Transphobia is a little different in that it is more rarified as a social phenomenon. There is a concerted attempt to introduce and reinforce it, which was not the case with homophobia, at least in recent history. The only place most people 'see' trans people is on social media, and of course transphobes very carefully curate their libraries of images of the trans to make sure we only see the ones who are a bit icky.

I'm going to surprise you by agreeing with you on this point.

I think the issue with the social mediaisation (I think I just invented a word) of this as a battle is, as I have mentioned before, this irrational desire to silence people. Interesting article here from one of the founders of Stonewall, Simon Fanshawe


View: https://twitter.com/adamboultonTABB/status/1657726422813757441?s=20

 

[AuroraSaab]

But you also think that TW are men and should use men's spaces, and TM should use women's spaces because they are women.

I think people should use the facilities appropriate to their sex. I have no issue with non conforming women using women's spaces and services. You seem to be suggesting it's a problem though.

You seem to care little for the dignity of women when a big fully male-presenting TM walks in, but instead try to wheedle out of your binary view by suddenly ignoring biological sex and saying they should use men's loos.

I have no issue with it. My suggestion was that if you think it's a problem perhaps you could accept transmen using men's facilities as a way forward. After all, they would be very unlikely to be a physical threat to males. Of course, there might be men who aren't happy with that, and neither you nor I can consent on their behalf. A third unisex space seems an option.

With regards to the thorny question of TW using men's loos, which you want, and then facing likely assault or rape because men are dangerous, you retort that men should change and not be dangerous...

...in which case seperate sexed facilities would not be needed, would they.

Nothing you say stands up to scrutiny.

If men aren't dangerous, transwomen can use the men's facilities without fear of assault or rape then, surely? If men are dangerous then women need single sex spaces.

It's also about privacy and dignity, especially with stuff like same sex care or hospital wards, as you well know though.

Ince again though, you've offered nothing to suggest a way forward other than women giving up stuff for men who identify as women. Sports, jails, changing rooms, you simply require women move over.

 

[multitool]

I'm going to surprise you by agreeing with you on this point.

It doesn't surprise me. I'm right.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You mean you haven't worked it out yet?

People, like Aurora, have been radicalised on social media. Previously, you'd have to actually meet somebody physically, be convinced by them and willingly separate yourself from opposing views and actively seek out like-minded people.

Now, algorithms do all that for you and beam it straight into your face whenever you open twitter or Facebook. Why do you think we've seen so many radicalised over things like COVID vaccines, climate change, and so on.

Did you think that Aurora had become radicalised because she had actually experienced the infringements on her rights that she claims exist? Of course not. I doubt very much she has ever had a conversation with a trans person, or possibly even met one. Most people haven't.

You are incorrect on every count there. What's odd is that you imagine yourself to have the intellectual higher ground compared to covid deniers and climate change deniers but you are happy to ignore the science on biology, crime statistics, and male advantage in sports.

 

[multitool]

You are incorrect on every count there. What's odd is that you imagine yourself to have the intellectual higher ground compared to covid deniers and climate change deniers but you are happy to ignore the science on biology, crime statistics, and male advantage in sports.

Your cherry-picked 'statistics' you mean.

Nowhere have I made any claims contrary to orthodox biological science.

Plus, having spent nearly 5 months reading your lies, misrepresentations and distortions, you really don't expect me to believe any personal anecdote you offer up, do you.

 

[Milzy]

You mean you haven't worked it out yet?

People, like Aurora, have been radicalised on social media. Previously, you'd have to actually meet somebody physically, be convinced by them and willingly separate yourself from opposing views and actively seek out like-minded people.

Now, algorithms do all that for you and beam it straight into your face whenever you open twitter or Facebook. Why do you think we've seen so many radicalised over things like COVID vaccines, climate change, and so on.

Did you think that Aurora had become radicalised because she had actually experienced the infringements on her rights that she claims exist? Of course not. I doubt very much she has ever had a conversation with a trans person, or possibly even met one. Most people haven't.

(Sorry to mention you by name, Aurora, but you are a local example Milzy could relate to. I would have mentioned somebody else, but there isn't anyone)

I completely understand what you’re saying but I’m aware of radicalisation by the media. I was just throwing fuel on the fire. In real life my views aren’t anything like Auroras.

 

[multitool]

I completely understand what you’re saying but I’m aware of radicalisation by the media. I was just throwing fuel on the fire. In real life my views aren’t anything like Auroras.

Most people's aren't.

Congratulations on being normal.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You're not though. Just being gay was difficult for society not all that long ago.

The difference is that the campaign for gay rights required nothing of anyone else. It sought equality in law and asked nothing of anyone but that.

Sports, prisons, single sex services, were completely unaffected.

There is also the huge increase in people referred to gender services in recent years. Most of them young people whereas in the past it was adults in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. This is why even the Dutch are rowing back on medicalisation of under 18's - the model for treating trans people was based on older adults, now the cohort is mostly kids. Many of them same sex attracted girls.

New Zealand stats:

UK stats:

Your cherry-picked 'statistics' you mean.

Bit rich coming from someone who had unequivocal proof that women didn't mind sharing facilities - which turned out to one survey question that said 51% of women they asked didn't mind tw accessing toilets.

As always, the evidence that doesn't fit your narrative - crime stats, gender clinic research, sports science research - is disregarded. Even the Cass report outcome was that it was so good they were going open a few more just the same .... literally the opposite of what every news outlet reported.

Plus, having spent nearly 5 months reading your lies, misrepresentations and distortions, you really don't expect me to believe any personal anecdote you offer up, do you.

What you believe or don't is of no interest to me. The vast majority of your posts are mostly abuse - directed at anyone who disagrees, not just me - because that's what you fall back on when you are unable to argue your case.

(Edited for clarity whilst MT was posting, not after. Just for those who like to monitor my editing...)

 

[multitool]

Similarly I don't believe anything you post. It's mostly abuse - directed at anyone who disagrees, not just me - because that's what you fall back on when you are unable to argue your case.

Pointing out your dishonesty isn't abuse. And at least 6 other posters have done the same.

And the only agreement you get in here is from icowden, and even then it's just occasional.

But, yes. You are the real victim here, aren't you, Aurora.
 

 

[AuroraSaab]

Perfectly possible to disagree with people without posting in the way that you choose to. It's not just confined to this thread though so it sounds more like your issue than mine.

 

[multitool]

Perfectly possible to disagree with people without posting in the way that you choose to.

Me and pretty much everyone else many of whom have more or less abandoned the thread.

Why is it, do you think, that so many people think you are dishonest, Aurora?

 

[Deleted member 121]

The difference is that the campaign for gay rights required nothing of anyone else. It sought equality in law and asked nothing of anyone but that.

Sports, prisons, single sex services, were completely unaffected.

There is also the huge increase in people referred to gender services in recent years. Most of them young people whereas in the past it was adults in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. This is why even the Dutch are rowing back on medicalisation of under 18's - the model for treating trans people was based on older adults, now the cohort is mostly kids. Many of them same sex attracted girls.

New Zealand stats:

View attachment 3856

UK stats:

View attachment 3857


Bit rich coming from someone who had unequivocal proof that women didn't mind sharing facilities - which turned out to one survey question that said 51% of women they asked didn't mind tw accessing toilets.

As always, the evidence that doesn't fit your narrative - crime stats, gender clinic research, sports science research - is disregarded. Even the Cass report outcome was that it was so good they were going open a few more just the same .... literally the opposite of what every news outlet reported.



What you believe or don't is of no interest to me. The vast majority of your posts are mostly abuse - directed at anyone who disagrees, not just me - because that's what you fall back on when you are unable to argue your case.

(Edited for clarity whilst MT was posting, not after. Just for those who like to monitor my editing...)

I was not directly comparing the two issues. Merely pointing out to milzy that society has faced challenges in acceptance of things once widely considered socially "wrong" or in some cases illegal. I could have used women's rights for example. I personally feel you are underselling how bad it was for gay people and in some cases still is, but again, i am not weighing the severity of your arguments or anyone else's against it, if it came across that way, it was not my intention. It was likely through social acceptance that the law was changed in the first place as is often the case. But in any case, i was not attempting to derail the thread into one about homosexuality, although my god, this thread could sure use a blast of cool air...

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why is it, do you think, that so many people think you are dishonest, Aurora?

No idea. You keep repeating it so it must be true.... Just like you keep repeating that gender critical views are akin to fascism.

I mean, you wouldn't do stuff like aligning gender critical feminists, including the left wing lesbian ones, with Nazis and fascists if it wasn't true, surely. Obviously the people who founded Stonewall like Simon Fanshawe, and Gay Liberation Front founder Bev Jackson, and Stonewall Riot veteran and first US Pride organiser Fred Sargeant, who are all gender critical, must also be on the same side as Nazis and fascists because you constantly say gender critical views align with the far right.

Your constant repetition of allegations about me is just your usual mud slinging, and mud slinging is your primary method of argument, in this and every other thread. It's not confined either to me or to this topic so it's very much your issue not anyone else's.