Local Elections May 2024

[winjim]

You can ask that about dozens of things. Much of life is mandatory.

Very little of life is democratic.

 

[multitool]

That's a bit harsh on Reform don't you think?

Very probably

You are right. His views are closer to whatever party Laurence Fox is currently head of, in that his views are inane, irrelevant, wrong-headed and generally just unpleasant

 

[albion]

And for good reason. The bad undemocratic stiff is all about staying in power. Loss of some power is certainly democratic.
Forcing people to vote would simply disallow apathy, not abstaining.

 

[winjim]

And for good reason. The bad undemocratic stiff is all about staying in power. Loss of some power is certainly democratic.
Forcing people to vote would simply disallow apathy, not abstaining.

It's possible I might not vote next time because I find the whole system a disgusting absurdity and I'm reluctant to legitimise it with my participation. That's literally the opposite of apathy.

 

[classic33]

Mostly is the way that the counting in here happens so slowly, some results are not expected until tomorrow, so the circus just drags on.

They used to do the count starting as soon as all the ballot boxes, for a ward/constituency, were at the place where the count was being held. The common complaints from those standing were that it led to mistakes being made in the rush to be the first to declare. And that it made the Thursday too long for them as it usually ended in the early hours of Friday. More so when they extended the polling station hours.

This "long Thursday" was addressed by holding the count the following day. Allowing a rest from close of poll until around 8am the following morning. It also addressed the mistakes issue. Fewer recounts have happened* since the count was done on the following day, thereby proving the point that allowing those standing a rest, fewer mistakes were made!

Now we have the same people who pushed for the counts to be done the following day, trying to get them done straight after the polls have closed and the boxes delivered to the count.



*I've no evidence that this is correct, but it's a point that's mentioned when the question of why don't they do the count straight away.

 

[C R]

The problem of the straight away count in here is that they pile up all the boxes in one place, so it becomes a logistical nightmare.

The way it works in Spain is explained here:

https://infoelectoral.interior.gob....scrutinio-en-las-mesas-electorales/index.html

Google translate does a reasonable job.

TL;DR version.

When the voting finishes the desk officers (chosen from the electoral roll, like jury service) open the ballot box and counting starts.

Counting is public and each ballot is shown as it is tallied.

Once counting is finished, a summary of the results for that desk are written down. The ballots and paperwork are forwarded to the central electoral authority for the province, and the provisional results are phoned in.

All desks count in parallel, so there's no mountain of boxes to get through.

 

[classic33]

The pile of boxes has an order to it, may not appear that way.
Each ward is split into polling districts, the first two letters on your polling card, or your entry in the register.
Each polling area has a number that goes along with two letter code. Boundary reviews apart, those two letters and box number will remain paired.

That pile of boxes will be in number order. The officer in charge of the count for each ward will know which boxes they require, and take them to their counting tables. The number of votes in each box can easily be counted by just one table. But the demand that those observing(watching) the count be able to see everything, at a speed that suits their needs overrules practicalities.
Go too fast and they can say that there's something wrong with a paper in that pile. Votes sorted under the candidates name or into 20's, 25's or 50's. Depending on how far in the count process they have gone.

Each box is tallied(verified) to ensure that the number of papers inside matches with the number issued. Then sorted by candidate, then counted for each candidate. At any point there can be an objection by the candidate, their election agent or counting agent. Result is the slowing or stopping of the count until they are satisfied that everything is now okay.

The practicalities of allowing the public unhindered viewing access of the count was solved by restricting who was allowed to view it. The public were simply stopped from viewing them.

Maybe if we stopped, or just limited, what those observing the count can actually do, the system and the actual count process would be speeded up.
The demand for the count to be visible at all times has lead to the situation we have now.

 

[C R]

The pile of boxes has an order to it, may not appear that way.
Each ward is split into polling districts, the first two letters on your polling card, or your entry in the register.
Each polling area has a number that goes along with two letter code. Boundary reviews apart, those two letters and box number will remain paired.

That pile of boxes will be in number order. The officer in charge of the count for each ward will know which boxes they require, and take them to their counting tables. The number of votes in each box can easily be counted by just one table. But the demand that those observing(watching) the count be able to see everything, at a speed that suits their needs overrules practicalities.
Go too fast and they can say that there's something wrong with a paper in that pile. Votes sorted under the candidates name or into 20's, 25's or 50's. Depending on how far in the count process they have gone.

Each box is tallied(verified) to ensure that the number of papers inside matches with the number issued. Then sorted by candidate, then counted for each candidate. At any point there can be an objection by the candidate, their election agent or counting agent. Result is the slowing or stopping of the count until they are satisfied that everything is now okay.

The practicalities of allowing the public unhindered viewing access of the count was solved by restricting who was allowed to view it. The public were simply stopped from viewing them.

Maybe if we stopped, or just limited, what those observing the count can actually do, the system and the actual count process would be speeded up.
The demand for the count to be visible at all times has lead to the situation we have now.

So having all the boxes together makes the process massively complicated and slow to avoid errors.

Counting the contents of each box at the station where it was filled is simpler, you only have one box to keep track of, and is still public.

 

[classic33]

So having all the boxes together makes the process massively complicated and slow to avoid errors.

Counting the contents of each box at the station where it was filled is simpler, you only have one box to keep track of, and is still public.

If the same system was followed at each polling station, I feel the count would actually be slower overall.
The demand that every candidate be allowed a representative at each station would complicate matters.

Does the Spanish system allow for objections from those observing that can stop the count? This is what really slows the count down here. If left to do the count, the whole process can take less than an hour for each ward.
All done at the same time.

That pile of boxes is to prove that every box is there and accounted for, before the actual count begins. And to demonstrate that no-one else has had access to them. They are in a secure area with limited access.

 

[classic33]

An annoying part of the requirement for maintaining the secrecy of the vote, is the fact despite this requirement there are people who should know better who feel that they don't have to keep to those requirements, that's just for everyone else Freely taking pictures, making phonecalls to let the outside world know they've won.

Every bit of paperwork sent out this year to candidates/election agents had an accompanying sheet reminding them of the law. Four audible warnings given out at the count and numerous signs and still they did what they wanted.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

You can ask that about dozens of things. Much of life is mandatory.

Normally you don;t have to vote - you can return the paper unmarked or spoiled

but you do have to make the minimal effort to do the basics - a decent system will make this very simple and take very very little time and effort

 

[Ian H]

Anyway, counting systems apart, I think we should applaud the Tories for doing as well as they have done.

 

[C R]

An annoying part of the requirement for maintaining the secrecy of the vote, is the fact despite this requirement there are people who should know better who feel that they don't have to keep to those requirements, that's just for everyone else Freely taking pictures, making phonecalls to let the outside world know they've won.

Every bit of paperwork sent out this year to candidates/election agents had an accompanying sheet reminding them of the law. Four audible warnings given out at the count and numerous signs and still they did what they wanted.

Yes, parties have representatives anywhere they want. And the first count at the station is open to anyone up to the capacity of the room.

Generally most disputes are trivial and solved on the spot. Anything more serious is written up and sent to the area electoral board, but I think a provisional result is still issued. The total count time is the time of the slowest desk.

 

[winjim]

Normally you don;t have to vote - you can return the paper unmarked or spoiled

but you do have to make the minimal effort to do the basics - a decent system will make this very simple and take very very little time and effort

Spoiling your ballot doesn't achieve a single thing except contributing to the turnout.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I think it can be an effective way of sending a message en masse, but it requires it to happen in such large numbers in a UK general election that it's unlikely to ever be registered as anything other an individual protest.