Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

[BoldonLad]

@BoldonLad You keep stating that we had 5 years to prepare and you keep being told that no we did not, nobody had a clue what the deal was going to be as there were so many options. This includes the voters who dropped us in this, the MPs who kept trying to have their say and influence government(s) policy, the government who was supposed to have a policy, the civil service who were supposed to enact it and the EU who soon came to realise that our negotiations were not in the famed British style but just utter chaos. There was no hope for companies to react regarding labour movements they were too busy refreshing the Government Gateway website waiting for some real information to arrive.

Despite this some companies were reacting, they were busy stockpiling as much materials/goods as they could afford. They were however unable to magic up hundreds of thousands of workers in a pandemic with an unemployment artificially low due to furlough and an inability to train them.

Other companies, like mine could react far more easily. We simply closed lots of offices, made people redundant and moved their jobs to the EU or India, only the irreplaceable were left unscathed. Companies in the financial sectors did the same, even mid sized companies in the UK created EU offshoots to handle the lack of movement of goods. However, when it comes to things we eat or move around in the UK it is not possible to have those jobs in the EU, it has to be in UK and there is no workforce ready and willing to start work.

I don't disagree with much of what you say.

I was not trying to say Industry in general, or, any specific Industry was solely responsible for the mess, and, I was not trying absolve Government from responsibility.

I not that you brought Covid into the equation, the referendum was 2016, Covid and lock down was not until (approximately) March 2020. so, I would accept SOME of the 5 years was overshadowed by Covid, Furlough etc.

However, I am quite amazed that on, I think, a generally "left leaning" Cycling Forum, there ia so much support for "big" industry.

Even on this Forum (or original CC forum from which it sprung) the topic of labour shortages due to EU Citizens (Understandably) leaving the UK, so, I would contend that, if a bunch of cyclists can see this, then, perhaps, the CEO's of our supermarkets (for example) should also have had just an inkling that.

I appreciate the chaotic nature of the Brexit Negotiations, however, again, I would contend that it is not acceptable for CEO's of major Industries should be able to absolve themselves on the basis that it was "difficult".

In the case of Agriculture, where, it would appear, almost their entire labour force consisted of workers from outside the UK, surely, it must have been obvious that there was going to be a problem, as soon as the "Leave" vote was known.

To be clear, I did not vote for May, or Boris, and, I shall not be voting for them at the next GE. I voted Remain, but, we did end up with a "leave" vote, we did end up with May, then Boris, so, our options are sit by and whine, or, to get our act together and do the best we can. By "we" I mean all of us, including the well paid CEO's.

 

[BoldonLad]

According to the Brexit leaders, and top Tory politicians like David Davies, the EU was going to be falling over itself to continue the beneficial trading terms that we had before. They need us more than we need them was their mantra.

Perhaps British industrialists were following the lead of our politicians in assuming that nothing much would change in trade. Even up to the very last minute.

Contingency plans are just that, contingencies, and no substitute for plans based on sound government advice ... which were in very short supply.

If even a bunch of cyclists on here could see that was not going to happen... perhaps... some CEO's are in the wrong job?

Judging from the events of the past few months, it would appear there were no contingency plans of significance.

 

[The Crofted Crest]

Does anyone know what happened to @Andyinsig, rabid brexiter, "nothing would change, easiest deal in history, they need us more than, sunlit unicorns, return to empire", year after year after year. And then gone. Was he a Russian bot?

Actually on a bike ride from Italy to Holland once I noticed I was near Sigmarigen so went there. And very nice it was too.

 

[StuAff]

Does anyone know what happened to @Andyinsig, rabid brexiter, "nothing would change, easiest deal in history, they need us more than, sunlit unicorns, return to empire", year after year after year. And then gone. Was he a Russian bot?

Actually on a bike ride from Italy to Holland once I noticed I was near Sigmarigen so went there. And very nice it was too.

No idea. Seemed to just flounce. Had a few written jousts with him over the years.

 

[Rusty Nails]

If even a bunch of cyclists on here could see that was not going to happen... perhaps... some CEO's are in the wrong job?

Judging from the events of the past few months, it would appear there were no contingency plans of significance.

What significant contingency plans could be made without knowing the terms of any deal with the EU and the level and complexity of rules and paperwork that would be agreed/imposed? How could employers/traders start making plans for trade with NI without knowing all the details and the full ramifications.

Yes, it is possible that some employers could have done better but they would have been planning blind and could never have made more than the arrangements eventually allowed ... if they were lucky.

The government were totally responsible for agreeing a deal far weaker than the one they said would be a certainty during the Brexit campaign ... and leaving it so late because of their poor grasp of how determined the EU would be in their negotiations. Companies were always going to be on a loser when up against political dogma and, it must be said, lies.

 

[BoldonLad]

What significant contingency plans could be made without knowing the terms of any deal with the EU and the level and complexity of rules and paperwork that would be agreed/imposed? How could employers/traders start making plans for trade with NI without knowing all the details and the full ramifications.

Yes, it is possible that some employers could have done better but they would have been planning blind and could never have made more than the arrangements eventually allowed ... if they were lucky.

The government were totally responsible for agreeing a deal far weaker than the one they said would be a certainty during the Brexit campaign ... and leaving it so late because of their poor grasp of how determined the EU would be in their negotiations. Companies were always going to be on a loser when up against political dogma and, it must be said, lies.

I can see we are not going to get anywhere with this.. all I can say is... when I worked, I frequently had to make (contingency) plans when I did not know all of the variables. Saying "I don't know" was not an option. A Contingency Plan can always be made, it may not be a good plan, and, it may not cover the eventual outcomes, but, it can be made, and, it is still a Plan.

 

[FishFright]

I can see we are not going to get anywhere with this.. all I can say is... when I worked, I frequently had to make (contingency) plans when I did not know all of the variables. Saying "I don't know" was not an option. A Contingency Plan can always be made, it may not be a good plan, and, it may not cover the eventual outcomes, but, it can be made, and, it is still a Plan.

Since the vote the 'headless chicken' has described well the UK's approach to planning and executing Brexit. Internationally it's not a good look .

 

[Bromptonaut]

I can see we are not going to get anywhere with this.. all I can say is... when I worked, I frequently had to make (contingency) plans when I did not know all of the variables. Saying "I don't know" was not an option. A Contingency Plan can always be made, it may not be a good plan, and, it may not cover the eventual outcomes, but, it can be made, and, it is still a Plan.

Not knowing all of the variables is one thing.

Knowing none of the variables is another.

If there are too many variables than do nothing, even if it's a 'rabbit in the headlights' look, is a rational reaction.

 

[Milkfloat]

I don't disagree with much of what you say.

I was not trying to say Industry in general, or, any specific Industry was solely responsible for the mess, and, I was not trying absolve Government from responsibility.

I not that you brought Covid into the equation, the referendum was 2016, Covid and lock down was not until (approximately) March 2020. so, I would accept SOME of the 5 years was overshadowed by Covid, Furlough etc.

However, I am quite amazed that on, I think, a generally "left leaning" Cycling Forum, there ia so much support for "big" industry.

Even on this Forum (or original CC forum from which it sprung) the topic of labour shortages due to EU Citizens (Understandably) leaving the UK, so, I would contend that, if a bunch of cyclists can see this, then, perhaps, the CEO's of our supermarkets (for example) should also have had just an inkling that.

I appreciate the chaotic nature of the Brexit Negotiations, however, again, I would contend that it is not acceptable for CEO's of major Industries should be able to absolve themselves on the basis that it was "difficult".

In the case of Agriculture, where, it would appear, almost their entire labour force consisted of workers from outside the UK, surely, it must have been obvious that there was going to be a problem, as soon as the "Leave" vote was known.

To be clear, I did not vote for May, or Boris, and, I shall not be voting for them at the next GE. I voted Remain, but, we did end up with a "leave" vote, we did end up with May, then Boris, so, our options are sit by and whine, or, to get our act together and do the best we can. By "we" I mean all of us, including the well paid CEO's.

You seem to have a bit of a revisionist view of history - take a look back at when the government really started talking about stopping free movement of people, but also the free movement of goods. For people it was really late on in the day when ‘no deal’ was a serious option, in reality we got ‘no deal lite’, up until that point freedom of movement seemed to be wrapped up in one of the many deals we were going to have. As for movement of goods, where we could import all we need and ‘screw business’, well that turned out to be not so free with a mountain of red tape. I am pretty high up in my international company, I was involved in our Brexit plans, we had various scenarios and they kept changing from week to week, in end we gave up and basically pulled out of the UK. We have still been left with a mountain of work to maintain our presence and sales here, I really feel for other companies who physically shift boxes and have a huge number of temporary workers on low pay.

 

[BoldonLad]

You seem to have a bit of a revisionist view of history - take a look back at when the government really started talking about stopping free movement of people, but also the free movement of goods. For people it was really late on in the day when ‘no deal’ was a serious option, in reality we got ‘no deal lite’, up until that point freedom of movement seemed to be wrapped up in one of the many deals we were going to have. As for movement of goods, where we could import all we need and ‘screw business’, well that turned out to be not so free with a mountain of red tape. I am pretty high up in my international company, I was involved in our Brexit plans, we had various scenarios and they kept changing from week to week, in end we gave up and basically pulled out of the UK. We have still been left with a mountain of work to maintain our presence and sales here, I really feel for other companies who physically shift boxes and have a huge number of temporary workers on low pay.

“taking control of our borders” was a key issue from day 1.

 

[stowie]

“taking control of our borders” was a key issue from day 1.

It is quite interesting to me. We have a bunch of right wing politicians who are all about free markets and not having "government meddling" until we get to one of the most basic free markets - that of human labour. When they become all socialist with a desire for government to have total control.

If those politicians actually cared about low wages etc. there are a whole number of levers that could be used to help. But they chose to not use any of them and actively campaign about those that are actually in place.

Brexit was only about one thing. Immigration. Nothing else makes any sense. And it isn't about helping the poor.

 

[mudsticks]

I can see we are not going to get anywhere with this.. all I can say is... when I worked, I frequently had to make (contingency) plans when I did not know all of the variables. Saying "I don't know" was not an option. A Contingency Plan can always be made, it may not be a good plan, and, it may not cover the eventual outcomes, but, it can be made, and, it is still a Plan.

I still work .

I constantly have to make contingencies for variables, and unknowns.

Imagine worst case scenarios, and have actionable plans in place, in case of things going wrong.

It's the nature of my job.

But if someone outside the system deliberately and wilfully, makes that system harder to operate.

Makes materials and resources harder to access.

Makes my contingency planning harder.

Moves the goalposts, promises one thing, and then reneges on that promise.

For no discernable reason, for no discernable benefit to anyone else , then I'm going to get a bit p**d off for being told 'You should have planned for this'

I know you didn't vote for brexit, and neither did I.

We didn't create this mess.


But the people who did , won't even concede it's all gone wrong, they're still trying to make out it's all fine.

Or they'll start blaming things on covid, or on business not 'planning' for this properly, or the EU being mean to us.

Let's at least be realistic about what and who caused these wholly avoidable problems, stop trying to blame shift it away from lying and deliberately deceitful brexiters..

 

[BoldonLad]

I still work .

I constantly have to make contingencies for variables, and unknowns.

Imagine worst case scenarios, and have actionable plans in place, in case of things going wrong.

It's the nature of my job.

But if someone outside the system deliberately and wilfully, makes that system harder to operate.

Makes materials and resources harder to access.

Makes my contingency planning harder.

Moves the goalposts, promises one thing, and then reneges on that promise.

For no discernable reason, for no discernable benefit to anyone else , then I'm going to get a bit p**d off for being told 'You should have planned for this'

I know you didn't vote for brexit, and neither did I.

We didn't create this mess.


But the people who did , won't even concede it's all gone wrong, they're still trying to make out it's all fine.

Or they'll start blaming things on covid, or on business not 'planning' for this properly, or the EU being mean to us.

Let's at least be realistic about what and who caused these wholly avoidable problems, stop trying to blame shift it away from lying and deliberately deceitful brexiters..

for the last time… I am not trying to shift blame. I am merely saying that the outcome of brexit, in terms of labour supply and movement of goods was obvious to anyone with a brain.
Just because I am not Boris bashing of Mogg bashing every second word does not mean I think they are blameless.

 

[BoldonLad]

It is quite interesting to me. We have a bunch of right wing politicians who are all about free markets and not having "government meddling" until we get to one of the most basic free markets - that of human labour. When they become all socialist with a desire for government to have total control.

If those politicians actually cared about low wages etc. there are a whole number of levers that could be used to help. But they chose to not use any of them and actively campaign about those that are actually in place.

Brexit was only about one thing. Immigration. Nothing else makes any sense. And it isn't about helping the poor.

Don’t disagree with any of that.

I didn’t vote for brexit or Boris.

 

[BoldonLad]

Since the vote the 'headless chicken' has described well the UK's approach to planning and executing Brexit. Internationally it's not a good look .

Quote me a post where I have supported brexit or Boris.