Starmer's vision quest

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Wobblers

Wobblers

Member
theclaud said:
We've farked up big-time in Scotland, lads! We need big ideas. Let's call in, er... Douglas Alexander, who was chair of general election strategy in 2015 and lost his seat to the SNP.
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I had half a reply to this a week ago but got sidetracked by other issues (just why letting agents are so useless??).

The gist was that the SNP didn't get in through nationalism. They got in because Labour became complacent. Let's not forget that it was Labour who gifted Scotland devolution - after decades of contempt and in some cases outright hostility from the incumbent Tory government (sounds familiar, eh?). Labour took Scottish support for granted, and largely ignored it whilst they focused in wooing the middle classes in the Home Counties. The SNP's trick was to attract the disaffected and increasingly marginalised Labour voter. It worked. That's the key to their success rather than independence.

Of course, now Scottish independence is very much back on the table - in so small part due to the contempt of a Tory government. To ignore that is madness.Labour won't make any progress in Scotland until they understand that. At the moment it seems that Starmer regards the SNP as the enemy -which is tantamount to regarding the traditional Labour voter as the enemy. They'll make no progress in Scotland until that stops. I don't see any evidence that the Labour leadership understand that they need the SNP on their side if they want to win an election, do you?
 
theclaud

theclaud

Reading around the chip
Wobblers said:
just why letting agents are so useless??
Click to expand...

They are not useless so much as evil.
 
theclaud

theclaud

Reading around the chip
Wobblers said:
I had half a reply to this a week ago but got sidetracked by other issues (just why letting agents are so useless??).

The gist was that the SNP didn't get in through nationalism. They got in because Labour became complacent. Let's not forget that it was Labour who gifted Scotland devolution - after decades of contempt and in some cases outright hostility from the incumbent Tory government (sounds familiar, eh?). Labour took Scottish support for granted, and largely ignored it whilst they focused in wooing the middle classes in the Home Counties. The SNP's trick was to attract the disaffected and increasingly marginalised Labour voter. It worked. That's the key to their success rather than independence.

Of course, now Scottish independence is very much back on the table - in so small part due to the contempt of a Tory government. To ignore that is madness.Labour won't make any progress in Scotland until they understand that. At the moment it seems that Starmer regards the SNP as the enemy -which is tantamount to regarding the traditional Labour voter as the enemy. They'll make no progress in Scotland until that stops. I don't see any evidence that the Labour leadership understand that they need the SNP on their side if they want to win an election, do you?
Click to expand...

I don't think we're disagreeing, TBH. There may be an element of regret in in my posts about Labour pissing away every last scintilla of good will in Scotland, but when I say they need big ideas, I don't mean big ideas to help them 'win back' Scotland as if they are entitled to it - I mean big ideas about democracy and how they relate to voters across the nations. Starmer will be taking a lot of advice from Briefcase Labour dinosaurs who are telling him he has to quash all talk of co-operation of any kind with the SNP - allowing the Tories to set the agenda yet again. He should ignore this, but of course he won't, because his instincts are profoundly undemocratic - the so-called grown-ups running the Labour party can no more handle people having a conversation about self-determination for Scotland or Wales than about self-determination for Palestinians. There's a movement for radical federalism in Wales that has Drakeford's ear (tho not Starmer's, obvs). It's hardly rocket science that the prospect of being yoked forever to the criminal cabal running England will fuel interest in and support for independence - it's incumbent on those who oppose it to propose viable alternatives and other means by which people might wrest back some degree of control over their lives.
 
Wobblers

Wobblers

Member
theclaud said:
I don't think we're disagreeing, TBH. There may be an element of regret in in my posts about Labour pissing away every last scintilla of good will in Scotland, but when I say they need big ideas, I don't mean big ideas to help them 'win back' Scotland as if they are entitled to it - I mean big ideas about democracy and how they relate to voters across the nations. Starmer will be taking a lot of advice from Briefcase Labour dinosaurs who are telling him he has to quash all talk of co-operation of any kind with the SNP - allowing the Tories to set the agenda yet again. He should ignore this, but of course he won't, because his instincts are profoundly undemocratic - the so-called grown-ups running the Labour party can no more handle people having a conversation about self-determination for Scotland or Wales than about self-determination for Palestinians. There's a movement for radical federalism in Wales that has Drakeford's ear (tho not Starmer's, obvs). It's hardly rocket science that the prospect of being yoked forever to the criminal cabal running England will fuel interest in and support for independence - it's incumbent on those who oppose it to propose viable alternatives and other means by which people might wrest back some degree of control over their lives.
Click to expand...

No, we're not disagreeing. Certainly Labour will continue to go nowhere in Scotland for as long as they slavishly bang the Unionist drum and ignore the growing gourndswell for independence. The sensible thing would to be acknowledge that there is a desire for self determination and open up lines of communication (at the very least - cooperation would be better) with the SNP. I suspect by doing so, they'd actually take some heat out of the whole independence debate by the simple acknowledgement that it's justified. Ironically, that might make independence less likely, as it might just divert support from the SNP to Labour. But, yes, the current situation of Labour policy set by diktat from a remote London centric Labour cabal is deeply damaging to Labour's prospects.
 
Mr Celine

Mr Celine

Well-Known Member
The 2015 election demonstrated that it matters not a jot who we vote for in Scotland we still get a tory government in Westminster.
Scotland has voted for left of centre parties at every general election since 1955. The only way we can get the type of government we want is to get independence first and labour denying this does nothing for their credibility.
 
D

Deleted member 49

Guest
Labour strikes a deal with the Tories to form a coalition in Edinburgh to block the SNP.
Inflation is at 9% and Labour want benefits to rise 6%....even Dr Death himself IDS is calling for benefits to rise in line with inflation !
What do we get from Starmer....A book lol. The new 1979,I was the son of a toolmaker 🙄
Can't wait.
 
theclaud

theclaud

Reading around the chip

View: https://twitter.com/Orwell_Fan/status/1405439338482130945?t=8qZko29QlAJnAVBdsR69_w&s=19
 
newfhouse

newfhouse

pleb
Piss off.

C1CB7FF0-CB06-425B-9BC8-19FBE7E815CD.jpeg
 
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