Starmer's vision quest

[multitool]

Oh I got the satire. But why on earth should I fight what is, in essence, a straw man?

We can have a discussion about what we would all like, if you want. But it would be a theoretical discussion only, and once it gets filtered through 'politics' it will look very different.

Me? I prefer discussions grounded in reality, and right now the reality is a malignant government with a huge majority enacting vile policies with no opportunity of Labour being able to defeat them in the House of Commons votes because of the catastrophic failure of Saint Jeremy of Corbyn.

Criticise Starmer all you want, but if enough people pick up on it the end result is another 5 years of Tory. At the moment his electoral strategy seems to be working, or at least he isn't alienating voters in their millions. What other possible reality are you seeing that I am not?

 

[multitool]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-election-keir-starmer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Adam is going to be jolly batey about this

 

[Xipe Totec]

Oh I got the satire. But why on earth should I fight what is, in essence, a straw man?

We can have a discussion about what we would all like, if you want. But it would be a theoretical discussion only, and once it gets filtered through 'politics' it will look very different.

Me? I prefer discussions grounded in reality, and right now the reality is a malignant government with a huge majority enacting vile policies with no opportunity of Labour being able to defeat them in the House of Commons votes because of the catastrophic failure of Saint Jeremy of Corbyn.

Criticise Starmer all you want, but if enough people pick up on it the end result is another 5 years of Tory. At the moment his electoral strategy seems to be working, or at least he isn't alienating voters in their millions. What other possible reality are you seeing that I am not?

There's probably little point in re-hashing all the arguments about Starmer/post-Corbyn Labour which I'm sure you're entirely familiar with and will have a rebuttal to. For my part, as you probably know I'm not a Labour voter - he and his party have been clearer than the actual Tories about their commitment to the absolute denial of democracy for Scotland, and their near-refusal to acknowledge the validity of Scotland's democratically elected government and Westminster representatives. So from that perspective it makes little real-world difference to me which brand of Westminster right-winger gets into power.

It's electoral reform (of the sort that Starmer was supportive of right up until he became Labour leader) which will deliver the genuinely representative Commons you'd like to see - but he's backtracked on that, and you know as well as I do he'll cling to FPTP if elected. Just like Blair did.

Hardman culture-warrior Starmer and his Farage-approved immigration policies, commitment to Brexit and abandonment of every pledge he was elected leader on, may win back the support of the former Red Wall - but the ten million-plus who did vote for Saint J in 2019 are just expected to hold their noses & gag it down - despite being told quite explicitly by Starmer that he doesn't want their support.

It's funny that Starmer supporters don't seem to think that's a problem.

 

[Xipe Totec]

What a weird chap you are. You put up some strange hyperbolic nonsense which you put in quote marks and ascribe to me, and when I point out they are your words not mine you accuse me of deflection.

Honestly. Go and get some fresh air Xipe.

Just re-read the thread and, as I thought, I didn't use quotes. It appears when you quoted me, you edited my post to add quotes in order to make your strange little point.

What a weird chap you are, etc.

 

[multitool]

but the ten million-plus who did vote for Saint J in 2019 are just expected to hold their noses & gag it down - despite being told quite explicitly by Starmer that he doesn't want their support.

It's funny that Starmer supporters don't seem to think that's a problem.

I think you and I are closer in view than you realise. Primary aim for me is Tories out, and something less bad in.

But, in that section of your post I quoted you are making a mistake.You are assuming that the 10 million people who voted for Corbyn are either diehard Corbynites, or anti-Starmerists. Some of them might be, but I'd wager that most aren't.

 

[multitool]

Just re-read the thread and, as I thought, I didn't use quotes. It appears when you quoted me, you edited my post to add quotes in order to make your strange little point.

What a weird chap you are, etc.

If memory serves I copied and pasted it and added quotes to quote you, then added quote=xipe totec to make it explicit, but forgot to remove the quote marks.

As I said upthread, I acknowledged that your words were satire, which means by definition that they are not a direct quote of me.

Stop being weird etc

 

[Xipe Totec]

I think you and I are closer in view than you realise. Primary aim for me is Tories out, and something less bad in.

But, in that section of your post I quoted you are making a mistake.You are assuming that the 10 million people who voted for Corbyn are either diehard Corbynites, or anti-Starmerists. Some of them might be, but I'd wager that most aren't.

The first bit's self-evident although the 'something less bad' part's highly debatable - Starmer seems to be pretty cool with most levels of current Tory awfulness, doesn't he? If I still lived in England I would have had no problem supporting most of Corbyn's policies but doubt I could bring myself to vote for what Starmer's turned Labour into. I think I'd be reduced to defacing my ballot with graffiti cocks.

I'm not 'assuming' that, it's hardly an absolute - but he's gambling that his toxic authoritarianism and powersliding rightward of the Overton window won't lose him significant left-wing support. It only takes a few hundred lefty cocks on ballot papers to let a Tory in.

If memory serves I copied and pasted it and added quotes to quote you, then added quote=xipe totec to make it explicit, but forgot to remove the quote marks.

As I said upthread, I acknowledged that your words were satire, which means by definition that they are not a direct quote of me.

Stop being weird etc

What a weird chap you are. You put up some strange hyperbolic nonsense which you put in quote marks and ascribe to me, and when I point out they are your words not mine you accuse me of deflection.

Honestly. Go and get some fresh air Xipe.

But... but... but...

Oh gawd, I give up.

 

[Deleted member 49]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-election-keir-starmer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Adam is going to be jolly batey about this

No surprises here....just proves what sort of w@nker Starmer is.There again i can see why he appeals to you though Tool.

 

[Xipe Totec]

No surprises here....just proves what sort of w@nker Starmer is.There again i can see why he appeals to you though Tool.
View attachment 3455

It's incredibly elegant 9-D chess, far too sophisticated for walnut-brains such as you and I.

Because everything he's already said or pledged has been a lie, then everything he's said he's going to do is also a lie! So he must really be The Good Guy! Right?

...right?

 

[multitool]

The first bit's self-evident although the 'something less bad' part's highly debatable - Starmer seems to be pretty cool with most levels of current Tory awfulness, doesn't he?

People said the same about Blair. But without Blair, or somebody like Blair, we'd have had perpetual Tory rule since 1979. And we'd likely still have had the Iraq War.

I think we all know that the British political environment, including the political media, is in the gutter. The Tories do not fight on morality, and I'm afraid they define the nature of the battlefield because large tracts of the media are owned by Tory supporters. I'm not sure how wanting a Labour leader to repeat Saint Jeremy of Corbyn's political errors is going to remedy this, and I view it as a wilful misunderstanding of how politics operates. We'd all like it to be different, but it is not. It is a rigged game. Remind me of when we had a truly radical, successful Labour government. That'll be never

Have a look at the recycled story in The Sun attacking Starmer to see the bind he is in.

But... but... but...

Oh gawd, I give up.

Sorry

 

[Deleted member 49]

Fecking weak...I genuinely hope this damages him.All this to appeal to a right wing media.

View: https://twitter.com/chakrabortty/status/1640307896243109892?t=hnwiOU9WRXIHIdQefu-wuA&s=19

 

[Xipe Totec]

People said the same about Blair. But without Blair, or somebody like Blair, we'd have had perpetual Tory rule since 1979. And we'd likely still have had the Iraq War.

All invoking Blair does is make me ponder what a bunch of woke, lefty, pro-EU, immigrant-loving, scrounger-supporting libtards John Major's Conservatives would look like from the latitude of 2023!

It's objectively fücking tragic that the entire political topography in the UK (and heartbreakingly, I'm including Scotland in there) is careering blindly into hard-right hate-politics, just to placate what amounts to a handful of bigots, bastards and psychopaths within the parties, the media and contested seats. Statistically it's not what the UK wants, and the root of all of it is that bloody hateful undemocratic electoral system.

If Starmer were to achieve power and introduce functional electoral reform (like fücking Blair promised), I'd take back everything I've said about him. But what are the chances of that?

 

[multitool]

All invoking Blair does is make me ponder what a bunch of woke, lefty, pro-EU, immigrant-loving, scrounger-supporting libtards John Major's Conservatives would look like from the latitude of 2023!

It's objectively fücking tragic that the entire political topography in the UK (and heartbreakingly, I'm including Scotland in there) is careering blindly into hard-right hate-politics, just to placate what amounts to a handful of bigots, bastards and psychopaths within the parties, the media and contested seats. Statistically it's not what the UK wants, and the root of all of it is that bloody hateful undemocratic electoral system.

If Starmer were to achieve power and introduce functional electoral reform (like fücking Blair promised), I'd take back everything I've said about him. But what are the chances of that?

To me this just feels like another cycle of what I lived through from the 80s to the mid 90s. I'm not sure the politicians involved are bigots because that would credit them with actual conviction. I think it is far more cynical. I don't know what information Starmer has on his desk, but it looks to me like a general attempt to stay out of culture wars and an authoritarian race to the bottom has had a rethink. Starmer has precious little room for manoeuvre and no client media.

 

[Deleted member 49]

He's a colleague and a friend and he's led Labour through some really difficult times in the Labour Party...I respect him and thank him for what he's done."
Starmer on Corbyn 2020.

 

[Deleted member 49]

That Miliband allways seemed such a nice guy...I'm shocked ! Hypocrisy at its best.

View: https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1640644208116609024?t=rWDaUF6dwied5v9FrJWFbg&s=19