Starmer's vision quest

[matticus]

The Tories haven't won an election in Scotland since the 1950s.

How many Tory Govs have we been subjected to due to the English Electorate since then?

I think you mean "The English who voted Tory". Quite a different thing - just ask voters in a Labour safe seat.

#notAllEnglishVoters :P

 

[Xipe Totec]

I think you mean "The English who voted Tory". Quite a different thing - just ask voters in a Labour safe seat.

#notAllEnglishVoters :P

Splitting hairs, really. In 2015 Scotland returned 56 SNP MPs and only one Tory MP - leading to the observation at the time that Pandas were twice as common in Scotland than Tories. The GE still delivered a Conservative government, for Scotland as well as the nations that elected it.

Let's not talk about the Lib Dems.

 

[icowden]

Splitting hairs, really. In 2015 Scotland returned 56 SNP MPs and only one Tory MP - leading to the observation at the time that Pandas were twice as common in Scotland than Tories. The GE still delivered a Conservative government, for Scotland as well as the nations that elected it.

However in 2017 Scotland elected 13 Conservative MPs. Add to that the 8 elected by Wales and you have 21 Conservative MPs elected outside of the English constituencies.

Is that important?

Well, the Conservatives won with 317 seats with Labour in second place with 262 seats, giving them a majority of 55 seats but not a parliamentary majority. Those 21 seats and even the 13 seats returned in Scotland were critical to the Conservatives being able to form a Government in partnership with the DUP. Had the SNP maintained their firm grip on Scotland, that Conservative Government would not have happened, and the most likely outcome would have been another General Election or a minority liberal coalition.

 

[matticus]

Splitting hairs, really. In 2015 Scotland returned 56 SNP MPs and only one Tory MP - leading to the observation at the time that Pandas were twice as common in Scotland than Tories. The GE still delivered a Conservative government, for Scotland as well as the nations that elected it.

I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to remind you how our democracy functions. It's not Scotch Voters -vs- English Voters!
Scotland elected one Tory in 2015, they have every right to elect a few more.
Meanwhile in seats like Liverpool-Walton, Labour voters have just as much right to moan about the "Tory Government elected by someone else"

The reason I point this out - as you asked - is that statements like yours exaggerate the rift between the two nations. Plenty of things in common if you take your blinkers off, comrade

 

[Xipe Totec]

However in 2017 Scotland elected 13 Conservative MPs. Add to that the 8 elected by Wales and you have 21 Conservative MPs elected outside of the English constituencies.

Is that important?

Well, the Conservatives won with 317 seats with Labour in second place with 262 seats, giving them a majority of 55 seats but not a parliamentary majority. Those 21 seats and even the 13 seats returned in Scotland were critical to the Conservatives being able to form a Government in partnership with the DUP. Had the SNP maintained their firm grip on Scotland, that Conservative Government would not have happened, and the most likely outcome would have been another General Election or a minority liberal coalition.

Yes - that's very important. Arguably (because you just know someone will!) if the leader of 'Scottish' Labour at the time hadn't exhorted Labour voters in SNP/Tory marginals to vote Conservative to "get the Nats out", then it is highly probable most of those 13 seats would have stayed SNP, meaning it's possible a Corbyn-led coalition of the Left could potentially have formed a UK government. How different the last 8 years might have been.

Cheers Kezia.

 

[Xipe Totec]

I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to remind you how our democracy functions. It's not Scotch Voters -vs- English Voters!
Scotland elected one Tory in 2015, they have every right to elect a few more.
Meanwhile in seats like Liverpool-Walton, Labour voters have just as much right to moan about the "Tory Government elected by someone else"

The reason I point this out - as you asked - is that statements like yours exaggerate the rift between the two nations. Plenty of things in common if you take your blinkers off, comrade

And yet, over the last 10+ years, Scotland has consistently elected not Labour, not Tory, but a progressive socialist party whose central ambition is to secure self-determination for Scotland.

So yeah, Scotland's just the same as Liverpool. 👍

 

[bobzmyunkle]

It's not Scotch Voters -vs- English Voters!

I thought the term scotch was reserved for whisky and eggs these days - that's what I was taught that at school anyway, a very long time ago.
'A scotchman was somebody from the days of horse-drawn carriages who worked on steep hills putting wooden wedges, called scotches, under the wheels of the carriages to keep them from rolling backwards'

 

[BoldonLad]

I thought the term scotch was reserved for whisky and eggs these days - that's what I was taught that at school anyway, a very long time ago.
'A scotchman was somebody from the days of horse-drawn carriages who worked on steep hills putting wooden wedges, called scotches, under the wheels of the carriages to keep them from rolling backwards'

Snap, we were taught same, in 1954 😊

 

[multitool]

Last autumn a few of you were whining that Labour hadn't produced a manifesto. I pointed out that the norm is for manifestos to appear in the last 6 weeks before an election, and Labour would not release their plans in case the Tories stole them.

And lo. The Tories are now discussing ending non-dom status.

A Labour policy.

 

[icowden]

I thought the term scotch was reserved for whisky and eggs these days

I had assumed that @matticus was one of those 'mericans. They use it.

 

[Xipe Totec]

Last autumn a few of you were whining that Labour hadn't produced a manifesto. I pointed out that the norm is for manifestos to appear in the last 6 weeks before an election, and Labour would not release their plans in case the Tories stole them.

And lo. The Tories are now discussing ending non-dom status.

A Labour policy.

Given it was John McDonnell/Corbyn era, I'm amazed Labour havent dropped it like a rabid rat.

You sure they haven't?

 

[multitool]

Given it was John McDonnell/Corbyn era, I'm amazed Labour havent dropped it like a rabid rat.

You sure they haven't?

They just dropped the stupid praising of Hamas, the liking of anti-semitic tropes, and the overall air of utter incompetence.

No need for them to drop essentially Labour policies.

 

[winjim]

Last autumn a few of you were whining that Labour hadn't produced a manifesto. I pointed out that the norm is for manifestos to appear in the last 6 weeks before an election, and Labour would not release their plans in case the Tories stole them.

And lo. The Tories are now discussing ending non-dom status.

A Labour policy.

Did Labour produce a manifesto with that in it then?

 

[multitool]

Did Labour produce a manifesto with that in it then?

That is irrelevant

 

[BoldonLad]

Last autumn a few of you were whining that Labour hadn't produced a manifesto. I pointed out that the norm is for manifestos to appear in the last 6 weeks before an election, and Labour would not release their plans in case the Tories stole them.

And lo. The Tories are now discussing ending non-dom status.

A Labour policy.

True, stealing labour ideas https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-looking-how-much-28568598, as long ago as 2022.