Starmer's vision quest
- Thread starter mjr
- Start date
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multitool
Pharaoh
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...are-collapse-transatlantic-alliance-us-europe
We could well be at the end of 80 years of peace.
In theory, Trump cannot pull the US out of NATO without 2/3 Senate vote, but he could render it impotent. We, in Europe, still need the US to ferry us
and our kit about. Russia has a war economy and is devoting a third (!) of GDP to the military. Estonia reckons Russia will invade a NATO member within 5 years, so does Germany.
Meanwhile the cultural message from Vance is to allow the fascists in.
We could well be at the end of 80 years of peace.
In theory, Trump cannot pull the US out of NATO without 2/3 Senate vote, but he could render it impotent. We, in Europe, still need the US to ferry us
and our kit about. Russia has a war economy and is devoting a third (!) of GDP to the military. Estonia reckons Russia will invade a NATO member within 5 years, so does Germany.
Meanwhile the cultural message from Vance is to allow the fascists in.
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C R
Veteran
De Gaulle was right in his assessment of the reliability of the US as an aly.
multitool
Pharaoh
So Trump is signalling to Putin that powerful countries can invade weaker ones without consequence. He's underwriting Israel's genocide of the Palestinians and seems to be saying that he will annex Gaza.
Looks like the 20 year old who tried to assassinate Trump was probably a time-traveller.
Looks like the 20 year old who tried to assassinate Trump was probably a time-traveller.
(Maybe for a different thread but ...) Trump hasn't yet realised the potential for the Riviera of the Black Sea Coast. Maybe Zelenskyy would achieve a better way forward were he to point out that there isn't a single Trump Towers in Crimea?
Ian
C R
Veteran
I expected you to have a more nuanced understanding of history than to subscribe to that cartoon version of what happened in WWII, I obviously misjudged you.
In any case, him being full of shïte doesn't make him wrong in his assessment of the reliability of the US as alies.
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multitool
Pharaoh
He was wrong.
The US paid for the bulk of European security for 80 years. France chose to withdraw from NATO's unified command for 33 years. Quite amusing in the light of De Gaulle's accusations.
As for a "cartoon version of what happened in WWII", perhaps you need to brush up on your history. You could start with refreshing your knowledge of Vichy France, why it came about, and, given that this is a cycling forum, the events at the Vélodrome d'Hiver in 1942.
C R
Veteran
Because of course, everything that happened during WWII in France is reduced to Vichy.
multitool
Pharaoh
Not "everything", but most things. The most perpetuated myth in France is that La Résistance was widespread. It wasn't. Most people either supported Vichy or keep quiet.
So embedded was the collaboration that France didn't even go after it's own war criminals until quarter of a century later.
Still, at least they weren't fascists until 1975 like the fûcking Spanish, eh.
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multitool
Pharaoh
We interrupt this dry reaming of CR to bring you more news of events regarding Ukraine:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-take-part-in-us-russia-talks-ukraine-kellogg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-take-part-in-us-russia-talks-ukraine-kellogg
C R
Veteran
Not "everything", but most things. The most perpetuated myth in France is that La Résistance was widespread. It wasn't. Most people either supported Vichy or keep quiet.
So embedded was the collaboration that France didn't even go after it's own war criminals until quarter of a century later.
Still, at least they weren't fascists until 1975 like the fûcking Spanish, eh.
Reminds me that Ralph Milliband was spot on in his assessment.
HMS_Dave
Member
Im sure the likes of CXRAndy have full of stiffy's with what his orange gibbon messiah and his brinkmanship has done over the last month, but there will be a price to pay. Any US president over the last 80 years could have done this but they didn't, recognising the wide ranging benefits for the US with having strong influence in Europe, Not all of it good, but never bad for US industry and it's economy.
Putting NATO completely at risk, that will disrupt the security of Europe, for what can only ever be token increases in defence budgets, compared to the US is nothing more than right wing theatre. Poland spends nearly 5% of its budget on defence, which is more than the US at 3.4%, and yet Polands entire fast attack aircraft could sit comfortably, with plenty of room to spare on one of the US Navy Nimitz class aircraft carriers and they have 10 of them.
There is far more to simply X amount spent on defence as a percentage of GDP that the orange alien is demanding. Industry, Economics, Social and cultural differences to name a few and only the thick grunts who are way out of their depth intellectually on anything unless it's changing the bog roll, are cheering him on, because somehow, it is sticking it to wokeism and the EU... Like i said, there will be a price to pay, far beyond a simple half a percentage increase in spending on defence here and there which is like a piss in a bath in the grand scale, but real extistential threat to the entire continent and as far as the US is concerned, real irreversible damage to it's own economy, society and standing as a result.
Putting NATO completely at risk, that will disrupt the security of Europe, for what can only ever be token increases in defence budgets, compared to the US is nothing more than right wing theatre. Poland spends nearly 5% of its budget on defence, which is more than the US at 3.4%, and yet Polands entire fast attack aircraft could sit comfortably, with plenty of room to spare on one of the US Navy Nimitz class aircraft carriers and they have 10 of them.
There is far more to simply X amount spent on defence as a percentage of GDP that the orange alien is demanding. Industry, Economics, Social and cultural differences to name a few and only the thick grunts who are way out of their depth intellectually on anything unless it's changing the bog roll, are cheering him on, because somehow, it is sticking it to wokeism and the EU... Like i said, there will be a price to pay, far beyond a simple half a percentage increase in spending on defence here and there which is like a piss in a bath in the grand scale, but real extistential threat to the entire continent and as far as the US is concerned, real irreversible damage to it's own economy, society and standing as a result.
Beebo
Guru
Russia is currently fairly weak, but will soon recover. It has been shown up in Ukraine. It can’t launch a huge offensive.
UK and France have nuclear weapons.
But can we even fire them without US authority.
Farage has always been against a European military force. But now that his beloved Trump has abandoned us, it would be interesting is someone asked him what we should be doing now.
UK and France have nuclear weapons.
But can we even fire them without US authority.
Farage has always been against a European military force. But now that his beloved Trump has abandoned us, it would be interesting is someone asked him what we should be doing now.
HMS_Dave
Member
Farage will just regurgitate the same crap his master tells him. Europe just needs to pay its fair share to NATO security and ignore the difficult questions, which is currently the course we are on.
The official line to the press is that the UK has full nuclear launch sovereignty. However, If the UK finds itself in a desperate position to be asking for launch codes for the nuclear warheads, then presumably we've got some coming our way and then we are all fücked regardless...
