Starmer's vision quest

[Deleted member 49]

I'd be amazed that anyone can look at the current shoot show and not think that it would be better if we had 10 to 20 billion more in the economy from trading with Europe.

I was a Conservative voter. I have never been a Labour voter and it is unlikely that I will become one as I disagree with a lot of their policies. Instead for the last 3 elections I have voted Lib Dem, as I will do at the next election.

I could ask you the same...how could you keep voting for them.Things were bad well before Brexit.The Tories and the Lib Dems did a good enough job of fecking this country without Brexit.

 

[icowden]

I could ask you the same...how could you keep voting for them.Things were bad well before Brexit.The Tories and the Lib Dems did a good enough job of fecking this country without Brexit.

I'm not sure they were. The first election I was eligible to vote in was the 1997 election. Labour were in power from 1997 to 2010, so I had only really been able to vote under a Labour Government. I had come from a public school education and a conservative voting family. My views mellowed a *lot* during University, but most of my friends were middle class and middle ground. So in 2010 Cameron seemed like a gamble worth going for. The partnership with the Lib Dems was a bonus in my view as it kept the Tories moderate, even though Clegg lost a lot of the things that he stood for like Tuition fees.

Post 2012 the country started going to the dogs, Cameron decided to have the Brexit vote which I could not support due to my possession of more than 4 brain cells and the fact that if Farage thought Brexit was a good idea, it definitely wasn't. For me it was "all major economists, scientists and industry leaders" vs Farage, Boris and the bloke that owns wetherspoons. Hardly a difficult decision.

SInce then I have been voting Lib Dem as it's the only alternative in my area and I don't like Labours policies. The Conservatives are now run by a lunatic right wing group, so they are not viable. We need to be stimulating the economy, supporting Nurses etc and building trade, not punching ourselves repeatedly in the gonads to make money for our hedge fund.

 

[Deleted member 49]

The partnership with the Lib Dems was a bonus in my view as it kept the Tories moderate, even though Clegg lost a lot of the things that he stood for like Tuition fees.

Bizzare....their legacy is inequality,poverty, homelessness and death but you think that was keeping the Tories moderate.They willingly backed austerity and then sold their souls for a fecking 5p plastic bag.
But hey that's just me,I'm not the forgiving type.

 

[winjim]

Bizzare....their legacy is inequality,poverty, homelessness and death but you think that was keeping the Tories moderate.They willingly backed austerity and then sold their souls for a fecking 5p plastic bag.
But hey that's just me,I'm not the forgiving type.

I'm glad to hear you think things have improved since 2015.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Bizzare....their legacy is inequality,poverty, homelessness and death but you think that was keeping the Tories moderate.They willingly backed austerity and then sold their souls for a fecking 5p plastic bag.
But hey that's just me,I'm not the forgiving type.

Then your options are rapidly vanishing...are the Socialist Workers Party standing in many seats?

 

[Deleted member 49]

I'm glad to hear you think things have improved since 2015.

Where did I say that ?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Then your options are rapidly vanishing...are the Socialist Workers Party standing in many seats?

Never heard of the Green party....maybe take a look they seem to have a few decent policies.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Never heard of the Green party....maybe take a look they seem to have a few decent policies.

They do. It's so obvious that I await their time in Government. They seem like a very nice bunch of people...who stand as much chance, probably less, of getting seats as the Lib Dems.

Under our FPTP system it will always come down to Tory or Labour...with the odd coalition possible, but less likely due to Starmer ruling out a deal with the Scots Nats. (Although I guess he would change his mind if push came to shove)

 

[icowden]

Under our FPTP system it will always come down to Tory or Labour...with the odd coalition possible, but less likely due to Starmer ruling out a deal with the Scots Nats. (Although I guess he would change his mind if push came to shove)

Exactly this. The Greens cannot win. There just isn't the support. The Lib Dems cannot win, but they can take seats away from Conservative MPs in traditionally conservative areas. Until we get PR we are stuck in this morass.

 

[winjim]

Where did I say that ?

The Lib Dems handled the coalition very badly, and deserved electoral oblivion for breaking their tuition fees pledge, but they were a moderating influence.

Part of the mishandling as I see it, was that they put themselves in a position where they were able to take the blame for Tory policies. This, coupled with the ensuing electoral wipeout led to the strengthening of the post coalition Tory party, Brexit, Johnson and all that has followed.

However, @icowden has demonstrated above why those on the left should welcome a strong Lib Dem party. I've made this point before, particularly during the Corbyn years. There are disgruntled Tory voters upset with the way the party has gone and looking for an alternative. They're not left wing and they won't vote Labour. But they might be persuaded to vote Lib Dem. Starmer notwithstanding this benefits the Labour party, fewer Tory votes hopefully mean fewer Tory seats, it's good news for them before you even begin to think about coalition.

Under a right wing government with people looking for a change a strong centre benefits the left.

 

[Deleted member 49]

They do. It's so obvious that I await their time in Government. They seem like a very nice bunch of people...who stand as much chance, probably less, of getting seats as the Lib Dems.

Under our FPTP system it will always come down to Tory or Labour...with the odd coalition possible, but less likely due to Starmer ruling out a deal with the Scots Nats.

You don't get it do you....I don't just vote for the sake of it.They have to offer me something that I think will change things for the better.Were more than likely going to get a right wing Labour Government in place of the Tories.Will it change much as far as I'm concerned ? I very much doubt it.We deserve a lot better and we're going to need a lot more than what either are offering.So do I vote for a party that can't seem to even support striking workers ?
I voted for Blair once.....I won't just vote for the sake of it again.

 

[Deleted member 49]

The Lib Dems handled the coalition very badly, and deserved electoral oblivion for breaking their tuition fees pledge, but they were a moderating influence.

This is bollox...if it eases anyone's conscience who voted for them so be it.They moderated feck all.Are you literally closing your eyes to austerity ?

Under a right wing government with people looking for a change a strong centre benefits the left.

I saw what benefits centrists offered me at the last election...I'll pass thanks.

 

[albion]

We always have to be careful of what we wish for.
This goes back to when Mugabwe got disowned by the socialist cause.
https://socialismtoday.org/archive/47/zimbabwe.html

 

[Fab Foodie]

Yep, and that cabal of middle of the road voters still exists. And it's a big one. The Tories are alienating their traditional middle ground base in favour of their swivel eyed loon base.

I was a Conservative voter. I have never been a Labour voter and it is unlikely that I will become one as I disagree with a lot of their policies. Instead for the last 3 elections I have voted Lib Dem, as I will do at the next election.

I live in a very safe conservative area (Walton and Esher). However Raab has done his level best to piss off everyone in Walton and Esher, and his majority is very quickly going down the plughole. In 2015 he had a majority of 28,000. In 2017 down to 23,000. In 2019 down to 2,000. My forecast is that the next MP will be Lib Dem. A vote for Labour here would be pointless - even Labour have conceded that. By allying with Lib Dems, and agreeing not to run against each other where their candidates have no chance, they would win a majority but in coalition.

So no, it isn't a surprise that the LIb Dems felt themselves to be more aligned with conservative policies at that time than with Labour. Labour wouldn't have had a safe majority and Gordon Brown was massively unpopular whereas most thought Cameron was unremarkable but wouldn't do any real damage.

Pretty-much my position....

 

[Rusty Nails]

You don't get it do you....I don't just vote for the sake of it.They have to offer me something that I think will change things for the better.Were more than likely going to get a right wing Labour Government in place of the Tories.Will it change much as far as I'm concerned ? I very much doubt it.We deserve a lot better and we're going to need a lot more than what either are offering.So do I vote for a party that can't seem to even support striking workers ?
I voted for Blair once.....I won't just vote for the sake of it again.

I entirely get what you write. We must all do what we think is best in any election.