Starmer's vision quest

[Deleted member 49]

Same cünts as in the north. There's just more people in the south and the median age is higher.

You don't half talk some sh1te.

 

[multitool]

You don't half talk some sh1te.

What is sh1te? That the median age is higher in the south, or that population density is higher?

There's also the question of who voted.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Oh here we go.

Have you noticed how the govt have been able to do whatever they want? Why do you think that is?

Give us a clue....

View: https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1627699603046039553?t=w4Yocv2H2WZV8FP31WXIqQ&s=19

 

[multitool]

Give us a clue....

View: https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1627699603046039553?t=w4Yocv2H2WZV8FP31WXIqQ&s=19

Shall we do some maths?

There are 355 Tory MPS. 88% voted for S35. That's 312 people.

Labour has 196 MPs. 94% abstained. But even if all had voted against S35 that still leaves the Tories 116 votes ahead. The other parties could not make up the shortfall. In total there were only 71 votes against S35. It made no difference whether Labour abstained or not.

'Stats for Lefties' lol.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Shall we do some maths?

There are 355 Tory MPS. 88% voted for S35. That's 312 people.

Labour has 196 MPs. 94% abstained. But even if all had voted against S35 that still leaves the Tories 116 votes ahead. The other parties could not make up the shortfall. In total there were only 71 votes against S35.

Lol Better to abstain...you have got the hots for him.Fecking hell and you call me a fanboy....

 

[multitool]

Lol Better to abstain...you have got the hots for him.Fecking hell and you call me a fanboy....

Are you terminally dim?

If Labour voted en masse against S35, theS35 bill would still have passed. (thanks to huge majority gifted to Tories in 2019 by Jesus Corbyn).

Starmer knows this. He knows his votes wouldn't defeat S35. He also knows that a Labour vote against would open up accusations that Labour are pro-rapist, and anti women. It doesn't matter that it isn't true, it matters what public perception is, and it is a fight that Starmer cannot win. Did you see the public discourse over the Scottish trans rapist prisoners at large in Scottish prisons? It didnt matter that there actually weren't any for the public to believe that there were and to be outraged by something that in reality doesn't exist. That is the nature of culture wars.

The Tories are invoking a culture war because they know it is potentially the only thing that could defeat Labour (or at least dent it electorally) and they know culture war is effective (brexit was a culture war). Starmer has to act accordingly. You might not like it, I might not like it, but this is the game being played and these are the political realities.

 

[theclaud]

The prize always goes to those men. That is the nature of power. The choices for us are not ones we would necessarily choose, but that is what is on the table.

There is no alternative electoral system available to us, and the one we have is rigged.

It's not 'the nature of power', it's just a form of hegemony - supported by, but not reducible to, a rigged electoral system. It's about the particularities of power, not its universalities. If the movement behind Corbynism had had no power, it wouldn't have provoked an establishment meltdown. Those who hitched their wagons to the anti-Corbyn train are still raking over his (largely irrelevant) faults, as if a challenge to the status quo with a different figurehead wouldn't have met equally ferocious resistance, albeit manifested differently - I suppose it's more comfortable that way. 2015-18 was a period of intense democratic ferment in which voting and parliamentary politics suddenly became relevant again to vast swathes of the population. For now, they're largely irrelevant again, so we chip away at those determined to keep it that way as best we can and/or move our energies elsewhere. If, when 2024 rolls around, Briefcase Labour is confident of a majority anyway and can afford to treat us with its customary Mandelsonian contempt, we can vote for another party that actually represents our interests, and if it's not, it had best figure out quickly what it needs to do to win our votes.

 

[multitool]

Here's some stuff on Brexit voting demographics.
If you look at this first data visualisation of share of vote and you might think that it was the North that delivered Brexit, and in particular the area around Yorkshire and the Humber...

But then look at turnout... especially the Humber. Really poor turnout, so total vote count is comparatively small. Also consider that population density in Yorkshire and the Humber is lower than you might imagine

Here are the actual numbers. A good example is the North East. Big majority in favour of Leave, but a big % of a small number is an even smaller number.

 

[multitool]

It's not 'the nature of power', it's just a form of hegemony - supported by, but not reducible to, a rigged electoral system. It's about the particularities of power, not its universalities. If the movement behind Corbynism had had no power, it wouldn't have provoked an establishment meltdown. Those who hitched their wagons to the anti-Corbyn train are still raking over his (largely irrelevant) faults, as if a challenge to the status quo with a different figurehead wouldn't have met equally ferocious resistance, albeit manifested differently - I suppose it's more comfortable that way. 2015-18 was a period of intense democratic ferment in which voting and parliamentary politics suddenly became relevant again to vast swathes of the population. For now, they're largely irrelevant again, so we chip away at those determined to keep it that way as best we can and/or move our energies elsewhere. If, when 2024 rolls around, Briefcase Labour is confident of a majority anyway and can afford to treat us with its customary Mandelsonian contempt, we can vote for another party that actually represents our interests, and if it's not, it had best figure out quickly what it needs to do to win our votes.

It's a remarkably consistent 'form of hegemony' though, isn't it. In the context of UK politics it is indistinguishable from ' power'.

An establishment meltdown? I must have missed that. What I saw was a well oiled machine of client media swinging into play with comparative ease to destroy a naive and ineffectual party leader who widened his own goal mouth.

It's the machine that counts.

In a FPTP system I'm unclear how voting for minority parties can enact major change. Short of something revolutionary happening in British politics, the only possibility I see is for Labour to win a huge majority by avoiding all the Bear traps set by the right, and pushing through electoral reform.

 

[theclaud]

It's a remarkably consistent 'form of hegemony'

Yes, that's the thing with hegemony.

In a FPTP system I'm unclear how voting for minority parties can enact major change

UKIP, anyone? Actually I generally agree, but then I didn't say it would, hence the words 'chip away at'. But of course voting for the either of the two major parties won't enact major change either, so what's the incentive?

 

[multitool]

Yes, that's the thing with hegemony.
UKIP, anyone? Actually I generally agree, but then I didn't say it would, hence the words 'chip away at'. But of course voting for the either of the two major parties won't enact major change either, so what's the incentive?

I suppose the lesson of UKIP is that you need some sort of internecine war going on within the ruling party which you can exploit and hope for a massive miscalculation by it's party leader. End result was sh1t, though, and probably consistent with all populist end results.

The incentive for voting for the two major parties is that literally nobody else can enact major change although I suppose we ought to define what major changes we would like to see. I have a cynical view of politics, as you can tell. It ought to be about morality, values and truth, but it isn't. I see Labour as playing a cynical game in a cynical environment. It's not that I like what they are doing, but I recognise the political expediency. The hard lesson is that the Tories are utterly ruthless when it comes to getting into power.

The raw truth is that if Labour got an enormous majority it could make changes that would wipe the Tories out forever. But as you say, if they broadcast those intentions we know what will happen. In fact, it'll happen anyway, but the less ammunition Starmer gives them the better. Truth doesn't come into it.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Are you terminally dim?

If Labour voted en masse against S35, theS35 bill would still have passed. (thanks to huge majority gifted to Tories in 2019 by Jesus Corbyn).

Starmer knows this. He knows his votes wouldn't defeat S35. He also knows that a Labour vote against would open up accusations that Labour are pro-rapist, and anti women. It doesn't matter that it isn't true, it matters what public perception is, and it is a fight that Starmer cannot win. Did you see the public discourse over the Scottish trans rapist prisoners at large in Scottish prisons? It didnt matter that there actually weren't any for the public to believe that there were and to be outraged by something that in reality doesn't exist. That is the nature of culture wars.

The Tories are invoking a culture war because they know it is potentially the only thing that could defeat Labour (or at least dent it electorally) and they know culture war is effective (brexit was a culture war). Starmer has to act accordingly. You might not like it, I might not like it, but this is the game being played and these are the political realities.

Yea I'm dim...but your missing the point. An opposition leader is meant to oppose, regardless of whether a vote is won or lost. If he was bothered about trans rights he would defend it as a matter of principle.
But your not really into principles are you..with Starmer I mean.

 

[multitool]

Yea I'm dim...but your missing the point. An opposition leader is meant to oppose, regardless of whether a vote is won or lost. If he was bothered about trans rights he would defend it as a matter of principle.
But your not really into principles are you..with Starmer I mean.

End result of opposing this is same outcome. S35 passes. But he also opens himself up to highly damaging culture war attacks which, I believe, he cannot win. The Tories are fighting dirty, and the way to beat them is to not fight on their terms. It awful, but it's reality.

But you are now changing the goalposts. You posted that Stats for Lefties' bullsh1t which claimed that S35 could be stopped. It couldn't.

You still haven't explained what it was that I said about Brexit voting demographics that you consider to be "talking sh1te". If you are going to open your hole like then then back it up. Otherwise STFU.

 

[theclaud]

The Tories are fighting dirty, and the way to beat them is to not fight on their terms

Hang on a minute - Corbyn shifted the terms l, and apparently you didn't like it. Starmer has clambered straight back onto the Tories' favourite territory - immigrants, flags, nostalgia, yoofs hanging around on bicycles, cracking down on anyone who upsets drivers. Yvette will be banging on about single mothers any minute now.

 

[newfhouse]

Allways thought all those uneducated middle class people in the south were c@nts....

What’s your cutoff for being educated? Asking for a friend.