Strike!

[Deleted member 49]

See this is where I'm confused. I said labour movement, not Labour party. You seem like you want the current Labour party to be more left wing which to me means closer ties with the labour movement and the trade unions. But then you say you think people shouldn't take political advice from a trade union. So what do you think the relationship should be between the labour movement and trade unionism, and the Labour party as a wider political entity? And should the unions be giving political advice or not?




I'm aware that there are contributors to this forum who are much more knowledgeable than I am about the history of the Labour party and left wing politics...

Put it another way....it was allways more important to me to vote for a socialist Labour with Corbyn than which way I voted for Brexit.
Apparently Corbyn was allways a leaver🙄
I'd have took leave all day long not to have the Tories.
But I'm not to sure what points your trying to score with this....it's was advise,do you never make your own decisions?
I very much doubt Lynch's vision of Brexit had any similarities to what we have now.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Well, this isn't confusing at all, David Lammy is very clear on the BA strikes. It is a categorical no, he does not support them.

https://metro.co.uk/video/david-lammy-categorically-does-not-support-ba-strike-2716761/

Which is weird because he thinks it is not straightforward on the railways, although he does want to see people not inconvenienced. All over the bloody show aren't they?

https://news.sky.com/video/david-lammy-on-where-labour-stands-on-the-rail-strikes-12640603

I wonder if he is planning to fly abroad on holiday in August?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Well, this isn't confusing at all, David Lammy is very clear on the BA strikes. It is a categorical no, he does not support them.

https://metro.co.uk/video/david-lammy-categorically-does-not-support-ba-strike-2716761/

Which is weird because he thinks it is not straightforward on the railways, although he does want to see people not inconvenienced. All over the bloody show aren't they?

https://news.sky.com/video/david-lammy-on-where-labour-stands-on-the-rail-strikes-12640603

I wonder if he is planning to fly abroad on holiday in August?

David Lammy doesn't seem to know his arse from his elbow so to speak !
He might be right all strikes are different but....
BA staff are NOT striking for 10% inflation uplift, they're striking to have a 10% pandemic pay cut reversed

 

[winjim]

Put it another way....it was allways more important to me to vote for a socialist Labour with Corbyn than which way I voted for Brexit.
Apparently Corbyn was allways a leaver🙄
I'd have took leave all day long not to have the Tories.
But I'm not to sure what points your trying to score with this....it's was advise,do you never make your own decisions?
I very much doubt Lynch's vision of Brexit had any similarities to what we have now.

I'm not trying to score any points, just to understand your view, as a left winger, of what you think the relationship should be between the Labour party and the trade unions, given that you don't seem to think that workers should pay any heed to political advice given by their union.

 

[mudsticks]

See this is where I'm confused. I said labour movement, not Labour party. You seem like you want the current Labour party to be more left wing which to me means closer ties with the labour movement and the trade unions. But then you say you think people shouldn't take political advice from a trade union. So what do you think the relationship should be between the labour movement and trade unionism, and the Labour party as a wider political entity? And should the unions be giving political advice or not?




I'm aware that there are contributors to this forum who are much more knowledgeable than I am about the history of the Labour party and left wing politics...

I'm no expert on unions either really, nor the Labour Party, for that matter..

Despite being a long time representative of a grassroots union.

But I'm pretty certain unions have done a lot for workers rights pay and conditions over the years...
Even our present concept of the weekend is down to union action.
Health and safety (most of us prefer retaining all our born limbs right??)

And plenty more besides..

The 'People's History' museums are a good source of easily digestible info on all this.

There's one near you in Manchester - I'm sure they're happy to let the kids roam about, and the café is very nice 👍🏼

The union I represent is 'member lead' so we regularly consult on the concerns of our membership, and do advocacy, campaigning, and hold political and practical events for members too .

On occasion we get slightly off colour feedback from individual members that they think we are concentrating on one issue too much to the detriment of others..

eg talking too much about underrepresented identity groups

But I think that's as much about not fully understanding the breadth and scope of what we are actually doing, on so many fronts..

It's going to be an occupational hazard when trying to accommodate, and represent so many different people.

But we definitely have had a positive in impact on many of fronts, so I think its worthwhile continuing.

As organisations expand, they inevitably come in up against 'growing pains' too.

One problem is the overgrowth of 'hierachical structures , and 'personality politics'.

I imagine that could happen in really large , and officially structured unions.

We try to operate a 'horizontal' structure in our organising.
That can be tricky to navigate, and sometimes we call on outside help to do that..

But I really don't get anyone who says unions are a 'waste of time' .

Look at countries where union representation, and organising isn't allowed .

Who would want to 'labour' under those conditions.??

 

[Deleted member 49]

I'm not trying to score any points, just to understand your view, as a left winger, of what you think the relationship should be between the Labour party and the trade unions, given that you don't seem to think that workers should pay any heed to political advice given by their union.

Did I say don't take any political advice ? No I didn't....
As for Unions and Labour.Im disgusted by Labour under Starmer far more than any union !

View: https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1540989918423531520?t=xw8frV6Iw7vnOwwOnWKFJw&s=19

 

[newfhouse]

The train staff do a safety critical job, but there are not 000s of deaths on the DLR are there, or are they covered up?

Could it be, perhaps, that there is an army of mostly unseen but vital rail staff operating and maintaining the machinery?

 

[Ian H]

... The RMT has chosen strikes, do they think that will slow down or speed up automation? They are dinosaurs in a high-tech era, simple as that. But you are happy to back these striking neanderthals, right up until it one of my colleagues walks away from that life support machine is my guess.

How do you think the union should react when the employer refuses meaningful negotiations?
Do you think employees should be allowed to make common purpose to strengthen their hand in negotiating with their employers?

 

[Deleted member 49]

But you are happy to back these striking neanderthals, right up until it one of my colleagues walks away from that life support machine is my guess.

Wouldn't happen though would it.Is there not some sort of work to rule in health care strikes ? Duty of care ?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Could it be, perhaps, that there is an army of mostly unseen but vital rail staff operating and maintaining the machinery?

No more than any other light rail system. Pre-covid 122m journey's a year, 0 deaths because of accidents. Also 0 staff on the trains. So a railway can work safely without all those onboard staff, maybe the RMT are just hastening the end of their members jobs? Mick Lynch will be the new Arthur Scargill!

 

[Deleted member 49]

No more than any other light rail system. Pre-covid 122m journey's a year, 0 deaths because of accidents. Also 0 staff on the trains. So a railway can work safely without all those onboard staff, maybe the RMT are just hastening the end of their members jobs? Mick Lynch will be the new Arthur Scargill!

You'd have us all on zero hour contracts,minimum wage and we should be grateful to have a job.....
As long as your allright though ?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

How do you think the union should react when the employer refuses meaningful negotiations?
Do you think employees should be allowed to make common purpose to strengthen their hand in negotiating with their employers?

How do you think an employer should react when the union refuse to stay in a room and discuss an offer? Mick Lynch admitted they walked out of Wednesday lunchtimes meeting and refused to discuss an offer that had been put forward.

Do you think that employers should be allowed to strengthen their hand in negotiations too?

 

[winjim]

Wouldn't happen though would it.Is there not some sort of work to rule in health care strikes ? Duty of care ?

Certainly in the labs we made sure that all acute and urgent work was covered. Striking only made things more difficult for ourselves because the work didn't stop, we just had to work extra hard during the following period to make up for lost time. Clinical scientists represented by the FCS have a no strike policy.

Having said that, look at the the attitude of, say, Richard Madeley towards the ambulance service and it's clear that some commentators think that NHS staff can be held to ransom because they won't do anything to directly endanger patients. Like somehow they should be working purely out of the goodness of their hearts and shouldn't expect proper compensation.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

You'd have us all on zero hour contracts,minimum wage and we should be grateful to have a job.....
As long as your allright though ?

Brilliant, the response of a Student Union debating vice-captain.

The student union response to this is that you would have us all in steam trains with guards blowing whistles and people stoking engines. There used to be 3 people driving a train, now there is 1, on the DLR there are none.

How many people used to build a car? I have no idea, but I am guessing 00s of people were involved and each car moved slowly down the production line. Some car factories now involve just 10 humans in the whole process, and it is much much quicker, tidier, safer and more accurate. Progress or not?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Having said that, look at the the attitude of, say, Richard Madeley

I'd rather not.