The Good News Only - thread...

[Pale Rider]

It's a pretty big point though.

Yes, but I didn't make it.

Would you cross the Sahara, then Libya, the Med and the Channel if all you were after was an 'easier life'?

Which part of evidence is difficult to grasp?

The evidence you present merely indicates a determination to reach the destination, which is the UK.

 

[Rusty Nails]

That they are passed by, and that the travellers are prepared to undertake the particularly hazardous last leg, shows the end goal is not really safety, or even asylum as such, it's the UK.

For reasons that have been repeated several times. Family ties and the language.

It has also been shown that the UK is low on asylum seeker numbers compared to most European countries and, even though we have opted out of the EU, we, hopefully, will not opt out of being part of the wider European community and our responsibilities as a principled, civilised part of that community.

They are not all, or anywhere near near all, trying to get to the UK. You really do need to at least try to understand that and not parrot the bilge of the right wing press and politicians.

 

[Pale Rider]

Family ties and the language.

Funny families who have very, very, few women, children, and elderly people.

It has also been shown that the UK is low on asylum seeker numbers

Don't doubt it, but it's irrelevant.

The problem is hundreds if not thousands of people arriving every week without any documentation.

The number of asylum seekers we take compared to Europe does not add to, nor detract from, that problem.

 

[mudsticks]

It's a pretty big point though. Places like Jordan have massive numbers from Syria.

In so far as the Med Basin goes it's Italy, Greece and to an extent Malta who are the 'Front Line States' being the first country after Libya or Turkiye.

Is that really a minor issue?

Would you cross the Sahara, then Libya, the Med and the Channel if all you were after was an 'easier life'?

Which part of evidence is difficult to grasp?

No one coming here finds or even expects an 'easy life' they just want to get on and live a life.

It doesn't matter what you say though, some people just don't want anyone coming here, even if they're 'genuine' asylum seekers

They just want for this to be some kind of mean minded, insular 'Fortress Britain'.

Despite our having gone around the globe, expecting to be welcomed in every country..
Doing any amount of exploitation and extraction from other countries over the centuries so that we are so relatively well off here.

Those people want to rip up all the agreements and undertakings we made, when we had some decency and conscience, agreements to be a safe, and even welcoming haven for the dispossessed.
We agreed to do our fair share.

If people were genuinely worried about small boat crossings, or peoples welfare on those boats they would have been pressing for safe routes to asylum.

They're be pressing for the asylum processing for those already here to be done properly and in a timely fashion so that people could get on with their lives, and contribute, or else be removed.

But they don't call for any of that - they just want to reject everyone.


I'm guessing those people have never been refugees themselves, never had to flee from horrible situations, never had to go far from home and familiarity in order to try and build a life free from fear and desperation.

Well lucky, them.

I don't think they realise, for one moment just how lucky they really are.

 

[icowden]

It's about time the law was changed then.

Psst... You're wearing your swastika out in public again...

 

[Rusty Nails]

Funny families who have very, very, few women, children, and elderly people.

It is for the most part a very hard journey and no surprise that it is mostly the stronger one swho come. By family I meant family members already here.

Don't doubt it, but it's irrelevant.

The problem is hundreds if not thousands of people arriving every week without any documentation.

The number of asylum seekers we take compared to Europe does not add to, nor detract from, that problem.

Why is the no documentation bit a real problem. It forms part of the decision making over the asylum request.

It is most relevant that we take less than others,

 

[icowden]

Funny families who have very, very, few women, children, and elderly people.

Not sure how funny they are, but they have plenty of women children and elderly people.

Let's do a thought experiment.

Here you are, Mr and Mrs Pale Rider, Granny and Grandpa Pale Rider and your three children Rod, Jane and Freddy aged 20, 16, and 12.
Oh no! War has been declared and you live in an area likely to be the battlefront.
You have seen other friends and family killed. You need to go somewhere else.

Do you:

a) Set off as a whole family to try to reach the UK where your friends live knowing that Granny and Grandpa Pale rider probably won't make it, Mrs Pale Rider has a good chance of being raped along with Jane, and where Freddy has a good chance of also being killed.

b) Set off as a whole family to somewhere not immediately in danger as a temporary measure and then let Rod make the dangerous journey to the UK in the hope that once he is there he can then try to arrange passage for the rest of the family.

c) Discover that you only have enough money to get one member of the family to a safe country. Which person do you choose? The one who is most likely to be able to survive the journey, get employment and therefore bring the family to live with him.

d) Look up which country has the best benefits system and take the dangerous journey with everyone knowing that you all might die, but at least you can claim £67 a week benefits if you make it.

The problem is hundreds if not thousands of people arriving every week without any documentation.

And as we have pointed out, the solution is our Politicians not being dicks. If they want documentation stop penalising people for having documentation. It's not rocket science.

 

[Pale Rider]

It is for the most part a very hard journey and no surprise that it is mostly the stronger one swho come. By family I meant family members already here.

One poster tells me the young men are coming to reunite with existing family, the next poster tells me they are trailblazers for the women, children and older men to follow later.

I'll leave that one between the two of you, but it does show the huge gender and age imbalance of those on the boats needs to be explained.

No documentation is a problem because we live in a largely free, but regulated, society.

No documentation means there is no means to verify what the asylum seeker tells you, we don't even know his age and country of origin, let alone any means of assessing how he could contribute to society.

He could say he's a lawyer, a doctor - or an Indian chief - we are none the wiser.

Being off grid in the UK is also a licence to commit crime, should you be so minded, because detection is so difficult.

If they want documentation stop penalising people for having documentation

If you are honestly seeking asylum, documentation would assist you.

What you mean is we need to stop penalising people who come here under false pretences.

It's a point of view, but not one I share.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

One poster tells me the young men are coming to reunite with existing family, the next poster tells me they are trailblazers for the women, children and older men to follow later.

Could it be that the reasons are many and complicated and will vary from one displaced family to the next?

The fact remains that last year, on the government’s own figures, 76% of claims were granted protection at first asking because immigration control staff assessed them as valid.

You don’t like that and neither does this vile government we have but it reflects the truth that the asylum seekers we accept are deserving of our society’s compassion and support.

 

[icowden]

I'll leave that one between the two of you, but it does show the huge gender and age imbalance of those on the boats needs to be explained.

Yes. We explained it. People tend to go where they can speak the language and where they know other people whether they be friends or relations. The youngest and fittest people tend to be sent out to get to somewhere safe in the hope that they can save the weaker and more vulnerable.

No documentation is a problem because we live in a largely free, but regulated, society.

In which we have set up a system whereby it is better to have no documentation than to have documentation.

No documentation means there is no means to verify what the asylum seeker tells you, we don't even know his age and country of origin, let alone any means of assessing how he could contribute to society.

Absolutely. So why does the Government persist in their stupid policy?

Being off grid in the UK is also a licence to commit crime, should you be so minded, because detection is so difficult.

And obviously you would trek thousands of miles, deal with human traffickers and take the risk of rape and death so that you can commit a crime somewhere safe,

If you are honestly seeking asylum, documentation would assist you.

If that were the case, they wouldn't be dumping it in the sea.

What you mean is we need to stop penalising people who come here under false pretences.

No. We need to stop penalising people who haven't done anything wrong and penalise them when they do something wrong.

 

[Bromptonaut]

One poster tells me the young men are coming to reunite with existing family, the next poster tells me they are trailblazers for the women, children and older men to follow later.

Is there supposed to be a contradiction there?

 

[icowden]

If you are honestly seeking asylum, documentation would assist you.

Here you go: from your favourite Tory newspaper:-

Nearly every Channel migrant arrives in the UK without a passport after being told by smugglers to shred their documents to avoid deportation, Home Office figures have revealed.

Only 317 – or two per cent – of 16,510 Channel migrants had passports with them when they were picked up by Border Force, according to the data, released under Freedom of Information laws. That means 16,300 – 98 per cent – arrived in the UK without documentation.

People-smugglers encourage migrants to destroy ID papers because it boosts their chances of securing asylum and makes it hard to deport them as officials have nowhere to send them.

So stop making it easier to secure asylum without documentation and make it easier to secure asylum *with* documentation. Problem solved.

 

[Pale Rider]

Here you go: from your favourite Tory newspaper:-


So stop making it easier to secure asylum without documentation and make it easier to secure asylum *with* documentation. Problem solved.

Not sure what you think that proves.

If you are genuinely seeking asylum, the documents prove where you have come from, meaning it's easier to verify the country is one of those known to persecute its citizens.

The punters turn up with no documentation because they know it would reveal they are from a country where little persecution is happening.

 

[icowden]

The punters turn up with no documentation because they know it would reveal they are from a country where little persecution is happening.

No. They turn up with no documentation because they have been told it will improve their chances of staying.

 

[Pale Rider]

No. They turn up with no documentation because they have been told it will improve their chances of staying.

Yes, because their true documentation would reveal they were economic migrants.