Trans athletes in sport....

[PaulB]

In the 2000 Paralympics in Sydney, a good friend and club mate of mine, Mark Brown won the silver medal in the Marathon. He would have won gold and some argue he SHOULD have won gold because there's no doubt that Mark has a disability - he had his left arm amputated just below the shoulder when he was 19. The gold medalist in that event, Javier Conde had - and for all I know still does have two arms. This was a Spanish athlete who came fourth in the Olympic Games trial event earlier that year and Spain only took the first three finishers to the Sydney Olympics.

Mark never got bitter or upset about this but a few of his club mates back at home got annoyed on his behalf because if Javier Conde was able-bodied enough to contest a place in the Olympic team, why, when he missed out by one place was he able to then take a place in the Paralympic team for his country?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

You could start with the 3 classes proposed by Nicole Cooke.
Maybe that doesn't work out - maybe it does. Maybe that's enough classes, maybe not.

Well, straight off I assume you would need 4 categories. Men, women, trans women, trans men.

Although the number of women transitioning to men and wanting a professional athletics career seems to be very small (certainly a quick Google finds a very short list), you certainly wouldn't fill an 8 lane running track with women to men 100m sprinters. In fact I reckon a singles table tennis match would be extremely unlikely to have enough competitors!

So in an event such as the Olympics the vast majority of events would have no competitors, the basketball it appears have only 1 professional player, and what do we do then, just give everyone who turns up a medal if they have no competition?

 

[matticus]

The Paralympians seem to have dealt with these problems without crippling analysis paralysis. Feel free to read up about it.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

The Paralympians seem to have dealt with these problems without crippling analysis paralysis. Feel free to read up about it.

Have you read PaulB's post two up from yours? There are problems with having two arms that don't work properly compared to not having two arms! There is plenty of controversy about classification, feel free to read up about it.

There are also dozens of classifications, so your assertion that the thorny problem of trans sport can be solved with three categories is pure fantasy. In the Olympics there are 34 contested gold medals in swimming events. In the paralympics there are 148. Like I said, the Olympics would take months if categories were introduced, because in reality there would have to be simple categories for men, women, trans men (pre-op), trans women (pre-op), trans men (post-op), trans women (pre-op), different testosterone levels, and then it would get more nuanced.........................

 

[matticus]

There is plenty of controversy about classification, feel free to read up about it.

I know; do you think they are bad enough to disband Paralympic sport?

 

[Milkfloat]

Mark never got bitter or upset about this but a few of his club mates back at home got annoyed on his behalf because if Javier Conde was able-bodied enough to contest a place in the Olympic team, why, when he missed out by one place was he able to then take a place in the Paralympic team for his country?

Are you suggesting that Conde was faking his disability or that he should not compete in the Paralympics because he is too good? If it is the latter then how about Dame Sarah Storey who wins National Championships in abled bodies sport and wins multiple Paralympic titles too?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I know; do you think they are bad enough to disband Paralympic sport?

Hold on, who has suggested disbanding professional sport?

 

[matticus]

Hold on, who has suggested disbanding professional sport?

I might have to invoke Mark Twain at this point ...

 

[PaulB]

Are you suggesting that Conde was faking his disability or that he should not compete in the Paralympics because he is too good? If it is the latter then how about Dame Sarah Storey who wins National Championships in abled bodies sport and wins multiple Paralympic titles too?

No. But if he was able-bodied enough to compete at any level for the full Olympic squad, then that surely disqualifies him from taking the place of a disabled athlete in the Paralympics? It shouldn't be used like the UEFA cup (or whatever they're calling it now) being the booby prize for the third-placed team in the Champions League first phase.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I might have to invoke Mark Twain at this point ...

It would be much easier if you actually explained yourself wouldn't it?

 

[matticus]

Craig; if the Paralympics has struggled on for 60 years despite the issues around categories, why can't regular sport do the same?
The proof has been - as they say - in the pudding!

 

[PaulB]

 

[Milkfloat]

No. But if he was able-bodied enough to compete at any level for the full Olympic squad, then that surely disqualifies him from taking the place of a disabled athlete in the Paralympics? It shouldn't be used like the UEFA cup (or whatever they're calling it now) being the booby prize for the third-placed team in the Champions League first phase.

So you are penalising him for being exceptionally good as a disabled athlete?

 

[AuroraSaab]

There's actually an Italian transwoman runner in the sight impaired category, who was hoping to compete in the Women's category in Tokyo:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/stories-57338207.amp

I can't find any results so I'm guessing they didn't qualify.

So you are penalising him for being exceptionally good as a disabled athlete?

If he's exceptionally good, is he disabled (for the purposes of sport)? Is he competing in the correct category if his disability has a limited impact in his performance?

I don't envy the organisers of the Paralympics their job. It seems near impossible to accurately weigh advantage and disadvantage when the range of disabilities is so wide and individual circumstances differ so much.

 

[PK99]

If he's exceptionally good, is he disabled (for the purposes of sport)? Is he competing in the correct category if his disability has a limited impact in his performance?

I don't envy the organisers of the Paralympics their job. It seems near impossible to accurately weigh advantage and disadvantage when the range of disabilities is so wide and individual circumstances differ so much.

https://www.paralympic.org/athletics/classification
"The purpose of the IPC Classification system is to provide a structure for competition for people with health conditions that cause impairments, which impact sports performance, to ensure fair competition.  Specifically, it is designed to promote participation in sport by individuals with impairment by providing a competitive structure which minimises the impact of eligible impairment types on the outcome of competition."