Trans athletes in sport....
- Thread starter Fab Foodie
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Craig the cyclist
Über Member
You are aiming at the wrong analogy. A more accurate one would be a fully sighted and able-bodied athlete self-identifying as a blind person and demanding entry to the para-games. I reckon there would be uproar, but if that is how they identify, then why not?
matticus
Guru
Now *I*'m confused! Did you think I was talking about letting people choose their own category (presumably simply by "self-identifying" as ... whatever).
(I don't think Nicole Cooke was suggesting that.)
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
Not saying I support the idea, but…. Don’t quite understand the use of “denying”, surely, it is giving a choice, ie, take the treatment and don’t compete in a given group, or, don’t take the treatment, and do compete in that group.
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
What, all together? How risqué
Craig the cyclist
Über Member
Yeah I know, I was trying to explain that to @matticus
AuroraSaab
Squire
That second news article on the Paralympics is very interesting. 10 classifications, with athletes put up or down a class if they demonstrate a deterioration in their disability or get better. Also seems to be an incentive to do poorly when qualifying in order to get in an easier class. Shows why 'Women' and 'Open' is the best way to resolve the transgender issue. Clear boundaries, doesn't involve monitoring so people won't feel pressured to lower testosterone, and preserves safety and fairness.
matticus
Guru
As I said: I'm aware there are issues! But do you think that because of those issues, paralympic sport should be disbanded? Are you saying it is a terrible idea because of the cheating - and they'd be better off in the "Open" category, as this is easier to enforce?
icowden
Squire
Although even then there are issues. See Caster Semenya. This is an interesting article about her (I disagree with it but it is still worth a read).
https://theconversation.com/ten-eth...-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448
The gist is that because she was assigned female at birth and was raised as a women she should be allowed to compete as a woman because she is a woman. However she likely has XY chromosomes and in the most common version of DSD she is likely to be effectively male with internal testicles and no womb or ovaries but have an external genital appearance of female - hence her superlative performance over XX women.
Perhaps the best definition of biological segregation is to go back to biological. XX vs XY?
Mr Celine
Well-Known Member
But transwomen are women.
The two categories have to be 'female' and 'open' with having a Y chromosome excluding competitors from the former category.
Craig the cyclist
Über Member
When have I ever said that any sport should be disbanded? Why do you keep saying that?
Craig the cyclist
Über Member
Why have you used the 'trans' in front of the second word then? If you think they are the same, why prefix one of the words?
AuroraSaab
Squire
I think we'll have to disagree that transwomen are women. That would be a topic for another thread. Regardless, they can call it 'Female' if they like. I doubt the title will make it any more palatable to trans activists.
I think the difficulties around athletes with DSD's, or Intersex as it's more commonly called, are very different from those concerning transgender athletes. These are medical conditions, which in developing countries like Africa often don't come to light until puberty. They would have been picked up sooner in the West. You can't help but feel sorry for athletes like Castor Semenya, raised as girls but who are biological males. The current rules mean Semenya can run in the 200m, where there is assumed to be no advantage from their high testosterone levels, but cannot run in the 400m or above because there is a presumed advantage.
Where the issue does overlap with the trans athlete issue is that lowered levels of testosterone are not the defining factor in performance. Semenya has benefited from the physical gains of male puberty and these remain regardless of testosterone levels later on.
That article is interesting but I disagree because it comes down to feelings being more important than fairness. The author's solution - let biological women 'dope' until they reach the same level of testosterone as transwomen seems bonkers.
I think the difficulties around athletes with DSD's, or Intersex as it's more commonly called, are very different from those concerning transgender athletes. These are medical conditions, which in developing countries like Africa often don't come to light until puberty. They would have been picked up sooner in the West. You can't help but feel sorry for athletes like Castor Semenya, raised as girls but who are biological males. The current rules mean Semenya can run in the 200m, where there is assumed to be no advantage from their high testosterone levels, but cannot run in the 400m or above because there is a presumed advantage.
Where the issue does overlap with the trans athlete issue is that lowered levels of testosterone are not the defining factor in performance. Semenya has benefited from the physical gains of male puberty and these remain regardless of testosterone levels later on.
That article is interesting but I disagree because it comes down to feelings being more important than fairness. The author's solution - let biological women 'dope' until they reach the same level of testosterone as transwomen seems bonkers.
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Rusty Nails
Country Member
Paralympics were set up to allow people with disabilities and physical impairments to compete with their peers in a way that takes into account the impact of the ranges of disability/impairment. It is necessarily complex because of the wide range of impairments, and sadly can be subject to abuse by some unscrupulous countries and individuals.
Trans women are not impaired or disabled by their status, and I am sure would be insulted by the suggestion, so why would sports want to introduce extra categories, complications and opportunities for cheating if they do not have to. Trans women may be disadvantaged by not being able to compete in female sport but they are not disabled or impaired, and if the relatively small number eligible were free to compete in female sport immediately on transition then they would in all probability disadvantage a huge number of females.
