Trans athletes in sport....

[Fab Foodie]

Sounds reasonable, and, presumably scientifically verifiable.

At least a good starting point, however imperfect. And develop the concept from there.
In the future this could lead to more refined subdivisions/handicapping systems as used in Paralympic and other sports in order to create a more competitive field.

 

[icowden]

, but it does not mean a level playing field for a transwoman who has physically changed via hormones who is 'too male' for the female category and 'too female' for the male category.

I agree with this, but then that leads onto the question about what adjustments should be made to accommodate people with gender dysphoria. Originally we had the Olympics where people competed in sports to be the best in their sport. A new movement started suggesting that those with physical disabilities should be able to compete, and so the Paralympics was created. This is fiercely competitive but also has its share of controversy due to the difficulties of classifying athletes, and many suggestions that people "play up" their disability when being assessed to try to qualify for a class that they are going to be able to win.

Given that gender dysphoria is a mental illness that affects a person on a long term basis, being "Trans" would seem to qualify as a disability. The problem then is that the condition is relatively rare so if a trans athlete wants to compete, where do they fit in, given that their disability is not a physical one? Of course the final question is around whether some trans athletes are using it partially as a means to achieve at top level to the disadvantage of women.

But - on the flip side, disabled runners are not allowed to compete at the Olympics as it was determined that running blades give an unfair advantage over legs. So the IAAF acted to ensure an unfair advantage was not given in the mens events, but seem to be much more cagey about doing the same for women. Presumably because of the shouty bad press that goes along with saying anything in public that might upset the Trans community - which incidentally also extends to organisations like Stonewall where the "L" members are starting to feel that their rights are being trampled on in favour of the Q+.

 

[BoldonLad]

I just want to pick up on this part. I agree with almost everything else you have written on the topic, but not with this line. I feel that a transwomen has an unfair advantage in the female category, but they often cannot compete fairly in the male category. The hormone changes they go through when transitioning mean they are at a distinct disadvantage compared to males who have not transitioned. They really are in a lose/lose situation. Yes it would stop the cases of mediocre Dave deciding that to win a medal he can put on a dress, have a shave and self identify as a woman, but it does not mean a level playing field for a transwoman who has physically changed via hormones who is 'too male' for the female category and 'too female' for the male category.

I don't think there is a perfect solution as whatever is proposed as one group (except for males who have not transitioned) will always lose. I think it becomes a balance of what does the least harm to the smallest number of people. The nearest to that that is easy to implement seems to be the Open and Female categories at anything above 12 ish years of age and sorry to say if a transwomen wants to actually win they may need to look into mixed team sports.

Fits with my sentiments, it would appear, any solution will disadvantage some group(s), it would seem logical therefor that minimising the number disadvantaged is the least worst outcome.

 

[Rusty Nails]

1. Well, I did say that in my initial post, so, it would appear we agree

2. The current system IS divided into classifications based on weight (boxing), and gender (just about all sports. The hair colour etc you have introduced, I never mentioned it. What I suggested reduces the number of classifications, thus, I would have thought reducing the complexity.

3. I never said that women as a group where comparable to a group of any given height. Women may make up approximately 50% of the world population, but, do you know the exact proportion? I did point out that if we were to base our selection on the size (ie numerical content) of a given group, we would need to know. just what the %ge of each group (say, Male, Female, Trans, etc etc), and posed the question, 'did we know those %ges?'

4. That may well be true, and, given my lack of interest in sport, that is not an issue to me, personally. It would appear that you feel differently, so, your idea is?

49.58% of total world population. As near as makes no practical difference that would be a working % for each classification. It would be impossible to get any more accurate without a huge and costly exercise that would make no discernible difference.

My idea is that we stick to male/female classifications as the base line, making sports open where the sex of the participant gives no benefit/disadvantage. Each sport to have an open discussion, involving participants, particularly women..trans or otherwise, on how trans women are to be treated in that sport, free from political/gender activist intervention, and the sport then makes a decision and lives with it. If it reduces women's involvement in that sport then they should lose government funding and have to live with the effects.

In my opinion the "solutions" that you suggest would actually kill the patient.

I agree with @AuroraSaab in post #52

 

[Ian H]

Of course it can, the best, fastest, strongest wins.

Age, weight, sex categories are there in certain events to create a more level field but other than that why can't sport be 'fair'?

That's a pretty precise misunderstanding of my point.

 

[Deleted member 28]

That's a pretty precise misunderstanding of my point.

Perhaps you need to explain more clearly then?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I just want to pick up on this part. I agree with almost everything else you have written on the topic, but not with this line. I feel that a transwomen has an unfair advantage in the female category, but they often cannot compete fairly in the male category. The hormone changes they go through when transitioning mean they are at a distinct disadvantage compared to males who have not transitioned.

They could delay their transition until after their sporting career ends. Hormone therapy is not a medical necessity; it is used to alleviate mental distress not physical illness.

Athletes often have to make difficult choices. Many female athletes will have lost medals because they chose to have a child rather than compete that year, or conversely will have delayed pregnancy until after their career ends. Many men and women have had to choose medical treatment over sport, or sport over medical treatment.

 

[BoldonLad]

49.58% of total world population. As near as makes no practical difference that would be a working % for each classification. It would be impossible to get any more accurate without a huge and costly exercise that would make no discernible difference.

My idea is that we stick to male/female classifications as the base line, making sports open where the sex of the participant gives no benefit/disadvantage. Each sport to have an open discussion, involving participants, particularly women..trans or otherwise, on how trans women are to be treated in that sport, free from political/gender activist intervention, and the sport then makes a decision and lives with it. If it reduces women's involvement in that sport then they should lose government funding and have to live with the effects.

In my opinion the "solutions" that you suggest would actually kill the patient.

I agree with @AuroraSaab in post #52

Don't have a problem, in principle, with your proposal, but, good luck with the bolded bit.

 

[Milkfloat]

They could delay their transition until after their sporting career ends. Hormone therapy is not a medical necessity; it is used to alleviate mental distress not physical illness.

Athletes often have to make difficult choices. Many female athletes will have lost medals because they chose to have a child rather than compete that year, or conversely will have delayed pregnancy until after their career ends. Many men and women have had to choose medical treatment over sport, or sport over medical treatment.

I think it is very easy to argue that in a lot of cases, the metal health of a person means that hormone therapy is a medical necessity - denying people that seems wrong. I guess it comes back to what is most important sport or mental health, even though sport often is a great way of achieving good mental health.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

In the future this could lead to more refined subdivisions/handicapping systems as used in Paralympic and other sports in order to create a more competitive field.

What on earth would happen then?

Categories by birth gender athletes, 4'-5', 5'1-5'9", 5'9"-6'8. Tall and thin athletes, tall and fat athletes, trans men who are left handed, trans women who are tall, quite fat and right handed. Trans men who wear glasses, are quite thin, but not fast enough to run in the trans men who wear glasses and are quite thin, but are really fast category.

What is wrong with fit, fruity boys and girls in lycra just doing their thing?

 

[matticus]

At least a good starting point, however imperfect. And develop the concept from there.
In the future this could lead to more refined subdivisions/handicapping systems as used in Paralympic and other sports in order to create a more competitive field.

What on earth would happen then?

Categories by birth gender athletes, 4'-5', 5'1-5'9", 5'9"-6'8. Tall and thin athletes, tall and fat athletes, trans men who are left handed, trans women who are tall, quite fat and right handed. Trans men who wear glasses, are quite thin, but not fast enough to run in the trans men who wear glasses and are quite thin, but are really fast category.

What is wrong with fit, fruity boys and girls in lycra just doing their thing?

Craig have you watched the Paralympics? It's nowhere near the chaos you are describing. They are classified by disability - not by height, weight, handedness, or specs wearing. DIfferent classes are often put in the same track race, where practicable.
I don't know that this will be the answer, but it certainly seems feasible.

 

[qigong chimp]

Athletes often have to make difficult choices. Many female athletes will have lost medals because they chose to have a child rather than compete that year, or conversely will have delayed pregnancy until after their career ends. Many men and women have had to choose medical treatment over sport, or sport over medical treatment.

Instinctively I have some sympathy with this, while conscious that my instincts aren't infallible and, as always with this subject matter, feeling a bit exposed, like I've left the house with my skirt caught in my knickers. It's not really my territory.

Might it be about calibrating the pain of loss, something we all have to do in all decision making? Gender dysphoria is a medically recognised condition amenable to treatment in a way wanting to be a competitive sportsperson isn't. Gender is a foundational cornerstone of identity and being in the world in a way that competitiveness in a particular sport isn't.

When, as a younger man, I stood on the cusp of a glittering cycling career I had to choose, impossible as it was to reconcile the lazy, feckless, pleasure-seeking part of me with the driven young tyro of the amateur scene. That I'm not reclining in my Texan hacienda surrounded by framed yellow jerseys tells you which way that went. I chose indolence, white fat and obscurity; the path of Timothy Leary. I simply couldn't have both.


The artist Albert Herbert said that "at a certain age you realise what you are and there's nothing you can do about it. . . I just am religious. It's not rational, but if I try to reject or repress it, I have a sense of loss."

 

[Craig the cyclist]

They are classified by disability

Go on, just have a really quick punt at putting this current issue in classifications, off the top of your head, nothing scientific.

DIfferent classes are often put in the same track race, where practicable.

So presumably we would have an all male 100m final? Or do you propose to have the top 2 from (say for instance) 4 categories in the final? Which means 18 potential medal winners will lose out in the name of trans rights?

 

[matticus]

Go on, just have a really quick punt at putting this current issue in classifications, off the top of your head, nothing scientific.

You could start with the 3 classes proposed by Nicole Cooke.
Maybe that doesn't work out - maybe it does. Maybe that's enough classes, maybe not.

 

[matticus]

More good news on the men cycling as women front when a leading female former cyclist gives her views on this topic.

I've got a lot of time for Nicole Cooke and found her autobiography a fascinating read especially the way she overcame the roadblocks put in her way by British Cycling. I also found Robert Millar's autobiography excellent as well so the way Cooke brings his situation into the subject is great to read.

Apologies it's in the Heil but it's all her own work! https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...OOKE-hero-trans-woman-bravely-speaks-out.html

FYI ^