Trans athletes in sport....

[matticus]

When have I ever said that any sport should be disbanded? Why do you keep saying that?

I didn't say that. I asked a question, as part of a number of points supporting this proposal which I thought you might like to consider.
But you don't want to engage. C'est la vie!

 

[Fab Foodie]

.
But you don't want to engage. C'est la vie!

Consider that a bonus....

 

[matticus]

Trans women are not impaired or disabled by their status, and I am sure would be insulted by the suggestion, so why would sports want to introduce extra categories, complications and opportunities for cheating if they do not have to. Trans women may be disadvantaged by not being able to compete in female sport but they are not disabled or impaired,

Yes, I know. And I think Nicole Cooke knows. You didn't need to say it, let alone twice. (I wonder why you did feel the need to say it ... )
Who made this suggestion?

 

[icowden]

Trans women may be disadvantaged by not being able to compete in female sport but they are not disabled or impaired

Might be nitpicking, but arguably Gender Dysphoria which leads to transitioning is an mental illness and thus a disability. However they are not physically disable, but rather (in one direction) physically "enabled".

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I know; do you think they are bad enough to disband Paralympic sport?

Hold on, who has suggested disbanding professional sport?

But do you think that because of those issues, paralympic sport should be disbanded?

When have I ever said that any sport should be disbanded?

I didn't say that.

Well, it is pretty bloody clear you have become obsessed with disbanding sports!

I have been equally clear, I don't any sport should be scrapped, just ordered in such a way that it is fair. Having men in women's competitions is not fair in the same way having non-disabled athletes in disabled sport is not fair That does not mean I want disabled sport disbanded, I just genuinely don't get why you even raised it.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Consider that a bonus....

Awww, Foodie, are you in a mood with me?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I assume Matticus's point is that the Paralympics manage to continue with quite a complicated system of weighing up sporting advantage and placing people in different classes, so why can't the main sporting bodies do the same. We don't disband the Paralympics just because it's difficult to organise.

Craig's point is that different classes would be unworkable, and I think I would have to agree. There aren't enough trans athletes for a separate class - which trans activists would find unacceptable anyway - and there's no other way to accurately calculate the individual advantage of one trans athlete over women athletes.

Plus, Icowden's article link shows that there is a lot of anger amongst disabled athletes about the fairness of the classification system and this would be even more true if a classification system were introduced in elite sport where scholarships and careers depend on attainment. It only works with things like weight classes in boxing and age classes in Juniors and Masters events because the boundaries are very clear and difficult to get round.

We already have a classification system that mitigates the biggest sporting advantage and creates a level-ish playing field - and it's separating by biological sex.

 

[spen666]

This sort of topic shows the pointlessness of most debates on social media.

Each party has entrenched views and wants to denounce other views and are not prepared to change their minds.

What is the solution? I have no idea, indeed is there even a solution.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't think it's a pointless discussion. The alternative is that it isn't discussed and the issue is decided by lobbyists. Which is what effectively happened with the IOC and British Cycling - pro trans lobbyists pushed hard and got the rules changed before everyone else realised what was going on.

 

[matticus]

I assume Matticus's point is that the Paralympics manage to continue with quite a complicated system of weighing up sporting advantage and placing people in different classes, so why can't the main sporting bodies do the same. We don't disband the Paralympics just because it's difficult to organise.

Craig's point is that different classes would be unworkable, and I think I would have to agree. There aren't enough trans athletes for a separate class - which trans activists would find unacceptable anyway - and there's no other way to accurately calculate the individual advantage of one trans athlete over women athletes.

Plus, Icowden's article link shows that there is a lot of anger amongst disabled athletes about the fairness of the classification system and this would be even more true if a classification system were introduced in elite sport where scholarships and careers depend on attainment. It only works with things like weight classes in boxing and age classes in Juniors and Masters events because the boundaries are very clear and difficult to get round.

We already have a classification system that mitigates the biggest sporting advantage and creates a level-ish playing field - and it's separating by biological sex.

Well thankyou for your excellent summary in the first para - but I don't really agree with the 2nd one. I'll quote Ms Cooke, who has already done her homework:
"
Sport centres on fair competition among equals. Ask a welterweight which he would be more proud of – ten wins against a flyweight or one against another welterweight. If my cycling hero Pippa had transitioned when she was still competing and I had met her when I was the world's number one female road cyclist, I doubt there would have been a competition. I would very likely have been the flyweight sent to the canvas in the first round.

There must be fairness to both trans and biological females. They must each have their own category so each group can enjoy fair competition on an equal basis. The field in the trans group will be smaller. If the motive to compete is genuine, competing fairly without a circus of discord is surely preferable. It would allow trans athletes to enjoy sport without distraction.
"

 

[qigong chimp]

This sort of topic shows the pointlessness of most debates on social media.

Each party has entrenched views and wants to denounce other views and are not prepared to change their minds.

What is the solution? I have no idea, indeed is there even a solution.

I'd like to inaugurate the Bonio Award, a dog biscuit (in honour of shep's GOAT performances) prize for posters rocking up to a thread to bemoan its pointlessness.

Round of applause for spen.

This is a competition in which men, women, trans-women, trans-men and gammons can all compete on an equal footing.

​

 

[Deleted member 28]

Awww, Foodie, are you in a mood with me?

He doesn't like to 'engage' with people who don't think the same way as he does.

 

[spen666]

I'd like to inaugurate the Bonio Award, a dog biscuit (in honour of shep's GOAT performances) prize for posters rocking up to a thread to bemoan its pointlessness.

View attachment 957​

Round of applause for spen.

This is a competition in which men, women, trans-women, trans-men and gammons can all compete on an equal footing.

​

Really just proves my point as you turn it personal when someone posts something you do not agree with

Its this sort of attitude that means I rarely post in here

 

[newfhouse]

Each party has entrenched views and wants to denounce other views and are not prepared to change their minds.

I don’t think I’m alone in being the opposite of that.

 

[AndyRM]

Re: the categorisation thing, if you want to get really picky you'd need to divide it further into those who'd just had top surgery (IME, the most common), those who had bottom as well (rarer, and very complicated) and those who had no intention of altering themselves physically.