War with Russia

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Once a Wheeler

New Member
Ultimate armchair fantasy:
Ukraine attacks and defeats Belarus in a Blitzkrieg, deposes Alexander Lukashenko and installs Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya in the presidency. (She is currently in exile in Poland after being the real winner of the 2020 presidential election whose results were falsified by Lukashenko.) Tsikhanouskaya assigns the Belarus armed forces to help Ukraine and, under the overall command of the Western-backed Ukrainian forces,
they drive Russia out of Ukraine. Discuss.
(Pass the port, old chap.)
 
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BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Ultimate armchair fantasy:
Ukraine attacks and defeats Belarus in a Blitzkrieg, deposes Alexander Lukashenko and installs Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya in the presidency. (She is currently in exile in Poland after being the real winner of the 2020 presidential election whose results were falsified by Lukashenko.) Tsikhanouskaya assigns the Belarus armed forces to help Ukraine and, under the overall command of the Western-backed Ukrainian forces,
they drive Russia out of Ukraine. Discuss.
(Pass the port, old chap.)

I think you have had enough (port). ;)
 
Nothing new there apart from the date in the article, the line of this article assumes that if you create peace negotiation now and let Russia keep stolen land, that they would be a peaceful neighbor. Showing this war actually rages on from 2014 with several peace deal broken by Russia in between shows their claim to achieve peace will result in the opposite, maybe delay the new war with a few years, allowing Russia to form a stronger block with Iran an possibly China.

While currently the situation in Russia isn't mentioned in this article, only that Putin could resort to ''nuclear weapons'' of he gets into a full Nato confrontation. Apart from the fact that Nato has superiors monitoring capabilities making an unnoticed nuclear launch difficult of not impossible, the article also does not doubt or mention the tension about Putin's position. If you read many analysist, not just the Wapo, you will known that many of them question Putins position and that alone is already and reason to only accept peace negotiations if there are on the basis of a full russian retreat, including crimea
 
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Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
A year in and all the money and aid that’s gone into it could have stopped world starvation & poverty.
We’ve sent tanks with Germany. Fine. Borris wants war planes sent over. Personally I think Typhoons are a valued asset to us & shouldn't be put at risk over there. In time Rishi or a new PM may likely change their minds. I can’t see a squadron of sophisticated Typhoons shortening the war though. The fog of war has never been so thick & I smell something fishy is going on worse than Rishi.
 
I'm not sure those west of Russia particularly care what Putin thinks about the arms deliveries. Russia is in an extremely weak position, militarily and diplomatically.

I don't mean to be rude, but like most views in this thread and in our mass media, yours couldn't be further from prima facie evidence, and the truth.

The West, led by the US, have been trying their very best to ensure Ukraine can't "win", and to ensure Putin knows it.

How can this not be blindingly obvious? If the US/Western allies had wanted otherwise, they would have sent the overwhelmingly superior lethal hardware at their disposal to help Ukraine, wouldn't they? Yet they have refrained from doing so for 12 months, ensuring Ukraine remains a killing field, and increasingly a wasteland. Why?

The evidence, logic and reality were clearly dissected by Mearsheimer here, as part of a debate.

Since the reality today was predictable before the war, before 2018, before 2014, and even in 1991 when the USSR fell apart, Ukraine's suffering today is but another sobering reminder of Kissinger's observation below, if the cost of living crisis is not already:

FTHn06hagAEl7Dx.jpg


I don't think it is an exaggeration to say the actual full debate addresses one of the most important, if not the most important, issues on earth today. A link to it, including a transcript, is here. Mearsheimer's opposite number, Carl Bildt and indeed the "moderator" made pretty much all the points opined by most here and in the West. Therefore perhaps many might be surprised by how overwhelmingly one-sided the comments on the full debate on Youtube have been - the result of self-centred, fantastical opinions vs an analysis based on facts and logic, imho.
 

multitool

Guest
I don't agree. War, and international relations, are dynamic and not in stasis. What was viewed as an impossibility a year ago is now a given. Fear of escalating the conflict have given way to fear of an escalating conflict. Momentum towards equipping Ukraine has gained pace as consensus is reached. Less that a year ago supplying aircraft was viewed as too provocative. Now, as I said, the weakness of Putin's position has emboldened the West.



 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
I don't mean to be rude, but like most views in this thread and in our mass media, yours couldn't be further from prima facie evidence, and the truth.

Well they say truth is the first casualty of war. Clearly Russia is the aggressor, but I don't think all the truth has been said about the Urkraine. Not the incorrupt democracy that is being portrayed in the West. Chatted to my son-in-law about this who thinks Putin did have some legitimate grievances against the Ukraine and it is folly to ignore this.

Russia may not be as strong as was first thought, but Putin has been able to rely on a lack of direct western intervention knowing it is hollowed out morally on the inside and has been run by incompetent governments who have let their military capability degrade over the last couple of decades. This cannot be put right overnight.
 
I don't mean to be rude, but like most views in this thread and in our mass media, yours couldn't be further from prima facie evidence, and the truth.

The West, led by the US, have been trying their very best to ensure Ukraine can't "win", and to ensure Putin knows it.
Right, if that was true, they wouldn't have send, himars, bradleys tanks in the near future. I agree with you and that isn't really an secret that the west in Februari last year thought Ukraine would fall very fast. but since support has been slowly increasing, so the whole tone of your post, once a again a tiny veiled anti-us post, doesn't make any sense. No matter how many conspiracy's, out of context quotes you mix into it, it doesn't make it true.

What you do see is after, Iraq, Afganistan, Libya and Syria the west is looking for ways

Well they say truth is the first casualty of war. Clearly Russia is the aggressor, but I don't think all the truth has been said about the Urkraine. Not the incorrupt democracy that is being portrayed in the West. Chatted to my son-in-law about this who thinks Putin did have some legitimate grievances against the Ukraine and it is folly to ignore this.
That is true, although the EU did make it clear a few months back that Ukraine has ''a long way to go'' before being able to become and full EU member. Ukraine has indeed a long way to go to become a fully functional democracy
Russia may not be as strong as was first thought,
Like former US general Ben Hodgens said, they knew corruption was bad in Russia they didn't expect it to be this bad, will post the link if i find it, he is quite honest in how the west had been to lenient in standing up against Russia for a long time.
but Putin has been able to rely on a lack of direct western intervention knowing it is hollowed out morally on the inside and has been run by incompetent governments who have let their military capability degrade over the last couple of decades. This cannot be put right overnight.
That is not entirely true, first off yes, western countries have decreased their military budgets over the years but still have maintained and reasonable fighting force. And Putin knowns that because every time the west supplied weapons he started the bark, usually using the nuclear threat.(altough he never says that directly always consequences that the whole world will notice of something like that) But in reality he's losing more and more grip.
And while Russia hasn't decreased their defense budget but increased their corruption is and was so extremely high that their current weapons are not match at all for western one's in paper their t-90 tank should have come a long way but in reality we see the opposite. And even if they manage to beat that corruption current reports from the russian side imply the opposite they are still a long way behind because of the sanctions. All modern russian hardware relied on western technology which they now have to replace with lower specs parts.

So putting right overnight applies to both sides but still the west is in a much better position, and that is without taking the Us into account. As Wagner recently admitted they where behind the attack on a us military base in Syria, we also known how us vs russian elite forces compare, no us deaths, most of the russian ones on the graveyard (and the others retreated)

The west is still afraid to call a WW3 and i think it's an wise decision to delay that possible confrontation if it can be solved otherwise, but we should also not be afraid of it, because why else would we have something like Nato?(Just to be clear i don't think the west is currently afraid to call it, just carefull.)
 
I don't agree. War, and international relations, are dynamic and not in stasis. What was viewed as an impossibility a year ago is now a given. Fear of escalating the conflict have given way to fear of an escalating conflict. Momentum towards equipping Ukraine has gained pace as consensus is reached. Less that a year ago supplying aircraft was viewed as too provocative. Now, as I said, the weakness of Putin's position has emboldened the West.
Direct intervention hasn't happened because it would start WW3.

Think you might have missed the point, if your comments as highlighted aren't contradictory already.

The nuclear risk is principally driven by the "success" of Western intervention, whether directly or indirectly.

Similarly, the weaker Putin is at conventional warfare, the higher the risk for him to resort to nuking Ukraine, how else will he rescue the situation? In that event, is "no forever war" MAGA going to retaliate risking their cities if not the country turning into dust, while they wouldn't risk a soldier on the line currently? And then what? Let China pick up the pieces around the world for free after? Or nuke China without provocation too to ensure self destruction?

Or is Sunak going to nuke Russia on his own? Truss said she would, apparently...

That's the new reality in our multi/tri-polar world, quite unlike during the cold war, or when US reigned supreme for a period after the fall of USSR.

As Mearsheimer explained in one of his talks, it is questionable whether NATO will retaliate with a nuclear counterstrike even if Putin turns Germany into dust, never mind Ukraine.

Problem is, even if US refrained from nuclear escalation, Ukraine getting hit will very likely lead to worldwide proliferation, if not already - before the war Russia would not have helped Iran developing nukes. Now, who can say?

Does anybody (except some bloke from Holland ;-) ) still thinks the West can allow Ukraine to "win"?

Well they say truth is the first casualty of war. Clearly Russia is the aggressor, but I don't think all the truth has been said about the Urkraine. Not the incorrupt democracy that is being portrayed in the West. Chatted to my son-in-law about this who thinks Putin did have some legitimate grievances against the Ukraine and it is folly to ignore this.

Russia may not be as strong as was first thought, but Putin has been able to rely on a lack of direct western intervention knowing it is hollowed out morally on the inside and has been run by incompetent governments who have let their military capability degrade over the last couple of decades. This cannot be put right overnight.

Agreed. There were quite a few Western media pieces negative on the Ukrainian government before the war. No longer.

But what is more dangerous, is the demonisation of "the other side", like Russia was unprovoked and Putin is some imperial meglomaniac madman. Such clouding of facts and logic, without a thought on what happens (and indeed happened in history) if the shoe was on the other foot, is stupid if not fatal.

It seems to me far too many have been led down the garden path by the politicians and mass media, whose principal interest and prime objective is to be popular, which means appearing righteous, principled, tough and gung-ho (like many comments in this thread). Voices of pragmatism and compromise essential for diplomacy is now a sell-out, instantly exploitable by political opponents, and cursed as "Putin apologists" - who cares if they might be right and would save the people/planet?
 
D

Deleted member 49

Guest
And then what? Let China pick up the pieces around the world for free after? Or nuke China without provocation too to ensure self destruction?
Don't worry about China... there next on the list.They crossed the line with that balloon !
 
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