War with Russia

[multitool]

Sure, go ahead.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

It's a bit more nuanced than that, I think. "Narrative" when used by people like Milzy is used unwittingly in the manner of French post-modernists like Lyotard and Baudrillard in the sense that it is a meta-reality/metanarrative, an attempt to link what are essentially unconnected events through a conceptual framework. Or, in more prosaic terms, its a made-up story.

It's a conspiracy theorist era slur.

Agreed, but in case of Russia it's also part of their war, we all see Ukraine with flashy video's etc. but Russia is far more imbedded on socials etc. as we might assume, and conspiracy theorist off either side that already distrust the government for anything are an very easy target. and therefore often used as their ''usefull idiots''

Psychological manipulation has been used, and is being used, to control populations. Today, we refer to these efforts as “sophisticated marketing techniques”. But, these “techniques” are not only employed to sell addictive substances to children, they are also used by “political” parties and governments to keep the herds in line.

There is a big difference between (psychological)manipulation and Sophisticated marketing techniques. Even if with modern techniques it's only in intentions.

Also a think the Russian federation excels in because for (psycholigical)manipulation to work you need to be able to suppress or at least ''downvote'' other sources, but i don't really need to think because there is evidence enough, for example this russian writer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Osipov_(writer) has written a few books/novels that show how live is like inside Russia, if you go down my post in this topic i have linked to someone who in lenghts explained the Putin doctrine, how just like how Hitler started to criminalize/dehumanise Jews long before he rise to power and the holocausts. Putin also long before this war started to ''criminalize/dehumanize'' Ukrainians and other minorities years ago, changed the way how the history about the second world war is teached in schools making Russia more sounds like the hero's ignoring Stalin's dubious actions etc. etc. and hold and beyond, moer en more voce on Russia's state propaganda call for extermination of Ukrainians. Or is that the ''not msm'' you talk about?

But that doesn't mean the ''west'' doesn't do or try to do the same, the most clear example is the Iraq war, the interesting thing it that the manipulation worked both ways first off selling the false narrative of ''new weapons of mass destruction'' the fact that later no 'new weapons of mass destruction'' where found has gotten more than enough attention, the fact that there where weapons' of mass destruction is widely ignored, and when the Us left IS used these on many occasions. (although there are quite a few situations where it isn't clear whether it was IS using Iraq's MOD or Syria, both regimes don't really care about human life)

So i'm not blind to so that both sides are up for using things like this whenever it is convenient, however reading the rest of your post, has not much to do with the situation here, the ''herds'' are kept in line in Russia by forced conscription or jail punishments, and in Ukraine by a daily bomb shower.

 

[multitool]

To my mind the Iraq war was the result of several factors: a desire to maintain US military, economic and political dominance in the Middle-East, concerns about oil supply to the West (ie. ensuring to whom the oil is sold) and in what currency the oil market operates (the $), an ascendant fear over US domestic safety in the light of 9/11, residual hubris over the perceived victory in the Cold War as well as complacency after what looked like an easy victory in Afghanistan. The UK, of course, was happy to hang off the US coattails and pick up any scraps. Clearly the WMD thing was contrived bollocks. Certainly, contacts of mine in the special forces were under no illusions about the real nature of the war and saw it as a legitimate pursuit of UK 'interests'. In a sense they are right; western lifestyles are like sausages...they taste great but you probably don't want to think about how they are made. In fact, this probably applies to any metaphorical sausages one may be fortunate to have in one's fridge.

The Russian war special military operation really began in 2014 with the annexation of Crimea. This was a land grab of a vital Russian naval base permitting access to the Black Sea, the strategic importance of which is obvious when one looks at a map. Why did Russia do this? Because of fears of Ukraine choosing to leave the Russian orbit and look westwards. This was of course the source of Yanukovych's downfall after his attempt to stop closer relations with the EU, doubtless under pressure from Moscow. Along with this came a separatist movement in the east of Ukraine and an insurgent war.

So to this extent there are some parallels to be drawn with the Iraq invasion and the Ukraine invasion. The great difference lies not so much with the propaganda war preceding both invasions but the reaction to any pushback within the respective countries against it.

There's a dose of ethnocentrism at play when people present these as equivalent for they certainly are not. Whilst propaganda is universal, oppression of dissent is not equivalent and a visit to a totalitarian state is a stark reminder. Russia has an almost continuous history of totalitarianism, with a brief interlude in the early and mid 90s when it was replaced by chaos. The mechanisms of totalitarianism are deeply embedded in Russian society, as are instinctive behaviours towards it. I have spent some time in totalitarian states, including the Soviet Union in the mid 1980s, and conversations about internal politics are always conducted in a highly nuanced and coded manner. In Soviet times dissent entailed gulag, or in later decades either social and economic exclusion or a trip to a psychiatric hospital. Currently, it results in arrest, imprisonment, probably loss of job and, in the worse cases, physical harm.

I don't think that is the case in the UK, or indeed the US

 

[Milzy]

And you somehow do?

What's really going on then? Because from what I've read of your wittering about this whole conflict your sources are remarkably unreliable.

How the hell do you know what source is reliable? We are in an information war and the fog of war is thicker than a non elite Brexiteer.

 

[multitool]

How the hell do you know what source is reliable? We are in an information war and the fog of war is thicker than a non elite Brexiteer.

There's some truth in this. There is a propaganda war at play, but remember that we are fairly easily able to see both sides propaganda, albeit no longer that of Russia Today.

What we can see with absolute clarity is that Russia has faced no military invasion, nor is under any military threat from Ukraine.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

How the hell do you know what source is reliable? We are in an information war and the fog of war is thicker than a non elite Brexiteer.

Regarding this war you have so called ''ostint'' twitter/telegram accounts i follow read a bunch of them and regularly see claims for other media either debundked or confirmed, if it';s confirmed it useally with the real location.
But like most things being able to trust a source is good, being able to check a source is better.

 

[AndyRM]

How the hell do you know what source is reliable? We are in an information war and the fog of war is thicker than a non elite Brexiteer.

"Talking to Russians on Facebook" was something I'm pretty sure you claimed to be doing. And using Russia Today as a source.

I'd trust either of those about as much as an Olympic official in debt.

 

[matticus]

I'd trust either of those about as much as an Olympic official in debt.

Worth it's own "Like".

 

[theclaud]

contacts of mine in the special forces

Fair play, I wasn't expecting you to pull a Flying Monkey.

 

[theclaud]

we are fairly easily able to see both sides propaganda,

Stating the obvious, but propaganda doesn't look like propaganda unless you're outside it.

 

[multitool]

Stating the obvious, but propaganda doesn't look like propaganda unless you're outside it.

I meant literally see it. It's on telly

 

[multitool]

Fair play, I wasn't expecting you to pull a Flying Monkey.

Poor old FM.

Well, I shït you not. Ask me what colour the boathouse is at Hereford...

 

[Deleted member 121]

Poor old FM.

Well, I shït you not. Ask me what colour the boathouse is at Hereford...

It's more "Ask me what the colour of the boathouse is in eeeererrford"

 

[theclaud]

I meant literally see it. It's on telly

Yebbut framing.

 

[BoldonLad]

There's a dose of ethnocentrism at play when people present these as equivalent for they certainly are not. Whilst propaganda is universal, oppression of dissent is not equivalent and a visit to a totalitarian state is a stark reminder. Russia has an almost continuous history of totalitarianism, with a brief interlude in the early and mid 90s when it was replaced by chaos. The mechanisms of totalitarianism are deeply embedded in Russian society, as are instinctive behaviours towards it. I have spent some time in totalitarian states, including the Soviet Union in the mid 1980s, and conversations about internal politics are always conducted in a highly nuanced and coded manner. In Soviet times dissent entailed gulag, or in later decades either social and economic exclusion or a trip to a psychiatric hospital. Currently, it results in arrest, imprisonment, probably loss of job and, in the worse cases, physical harm.

I don't think that is the case in the UK, or indeed the US

I worked and travelled in Russia in the early 1990s, it was 'interesting'.