War with Russia

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albion

Guru
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/russia-eastern-ukraine-wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin
'Says Wagner boss'.

Apart from, in favour, Wagner leaders able to hide from battle, I imagine 99% of the original Wagner troops are dead.
It is like WW1 all over again.
 
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Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/11/russia-eastern-ukraine-wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin
'Says Wagner boss'.

Apart from, in favour, Wagner leaders able to hide from battle, I imagine 99% of the original Wagner troops are dead.
It is like WW1 all over again.
The death ration is 7 russian troops from 1 Ukrianian in Bakmut at the moment. Wagner troops have special bands, those with hiv or other deceases get a special band, they are left to die if wounded. Most of the ''original'' Wagner troops aren't deployed, up until Putin deemed him to much off a danger to his won position he could recruit in prisons, and contrary what he says, but Ukrainians as prisoners say they are used as canon fodder.

2 years needs an asterisk, as they currently do not have enough troops to continue to advance further. and there are limites on what they can mobilise, in June for example they go to choose whether to pay pension or a other wave of mobilization. That is apart from the fact that Ukraine isn't sitting still either.


The boss isn’t daft. It will take 2-3 years to secure eastern Ukraine. Then they’ll sign a peace treaty. Both sides will win something out of it all after thousands of deaths.
That isn't an peace treaty, unless the west invades Russia too occupies half off it and offers the other half back in exchange for ''peace'' if not it isn't peace, it's Russian blackmail and they will not succeed, despite your Russian sources might telling you otherwise.
 
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Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
The death ration is 7 russian troops from 1 Ukrianian in Bakmut at the moment. Wagner troops have special bands, those with hiv or other deceases get a special band, they are left to die if wounded. Most of the ''original'' Wagner troops aren't deployed, up until Putin deemed him to much off a danger to his won position he could recruit in prisons, and contrary what he says, but Ukrainians as prisoners say they are used as canon fodder.

2 years needs an asterisk, as they currently do not have enough troops to continue to advance further. and there are limites on what they can mobilise, in June for example they go to choose whether to pay pension or a other wave of mobilization. That is apart from the fact that Ukraine isn't sitting still either.



That isn't an peace treaty, unless the west invades Russia too occupies half off it and offers the other half back in exchange for ''peace'' if not it isn't peace, it's Russian blackmail and they will not succeed, despite your Russian sources might telling you otherwise.

Let’s have a bet on it. Russia take appeasement and Blackrock re-build Ukraine. USA win. Get with reality please!
 
I'm up here, Record!!

You sure are up your somewhere - think most of us would prefer not knowing where though, just sayin'

When it comes to geo-political structures, like NATO, and our position within them, then I'm not sure why you'd necessarily expect to see criticism. We've had no major war to fight in Europe for 77 years, and any border wars, such as the Balkans conflicts have had input to stop them spreading into NATO territory. The world consists of alliances in one form or another, this is our one and it is remarkably successful.

Why am I not surprised this 20+ years out-of-date view comes from someone who fancies our debate to be 3D chess?

The fall of USSR resulted in a US mired in hubris and bloody overreach when China rose to become a peer power. All the while NATO became a hammer looking for a nail, mirroring US, to whom it was just another instrument. If that wasn't the case, Russia would have been assured Ukraine would not be joining NATO, which was exactly what Merkel, Sarkozy and even Gordon Brown had wanted, but exactly opposite to what Bush Jr made NATO conclude in Bucharest in 2008. The rest, is history.

This is an unwinnable war for NATO simply because of huge imbalance in resolve. But with US seeing little at stake, they are happy with a war of attrition, perhaps unless/until a Trump Mk2 arrives, who might just abandon Europe and NATO altogether. Point is Ukraine is screwed either way, and to a lesser extent nearly everybody else, except some Gulf states, Norway and China etc. Some NATO members in Europe will see sense eventually, but the die was cast 12 months ago, and damage is being done with no end in sight.

The irony, is Russian leaders once thought they should/could make peace with the club, but were rejected and insulted. It must be hard to find a better example of karma for hubris than this:



I don't really know what to think to be honest. The whole situation is utterly bonkers, and to me feels like Cold War 2.0 territory. There is little to suggest anything positive will come from the whole conflict.

Depending on your standpoint of course, I think there is a silver lining, in that this might reduce the likelihood of the biggest and baddest bully starting a hot war with China, a war with the potential to be far more catastrophic than Ukraine could ever be. Ukraine is not only a major distraction, it is decimating some of their materiel, showing up their less than stellar production capacity, while handing China a captive supplier of vast complementary resources on a plate. A remarkable own goal really, but as history has shown repeatedly and vividly, the big bully's talent to make a mess should never be underestimated.
 
Let’s have a bet on it. Russia take appeasement and Blackrock re-build Ukraine. USA win. Get with reality please!
Russia from feared ''2nd army of the world'' to laughing stock in less than 12 months, From deploying their Armata t14 to the elite tank corps to t64 from the 60'' Usa and blackock (a hedgefund?) have no formal part in this war. It's Ukraine vs Russia with Ukraine being supported by the US and other countries. And Russia only by Iran, and maybe a few others. All ruled by dictators from some reason. and you tell me to get with reality?
 
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Deleted member 49

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Depending on your standpoint of course, I think there is a silver lining, in that this might reduce the likelihood of the biggest and baddest bully starting a hot war with China, a war with the potential to be far more catastrophic than Ukraine could ever be. Ukraine is not only a major distraction, it is decimating some of their materiel, showing up their less than stellar production capacity, while handing China a captive supplier of vast complementary resources on a plate. A remarkable own goal really, but as history has shown repeatedly and vividly, the big bully's talent to make a mess should never be underestimated.
America has been upping the anti China stuff for a while now.They fear the Chinese want to take over the world and replace the US as the number one power.
Where as I don't see that,I don't see China issuing the threats or going to war against anyone.Looks like it's ramping up though.Saying it out loud is a big step up.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-xi-jinping-takes-rare-direct-aim-at-u-s-in-speech-5d8fde1a
 

multitool

Guest
China is getting ready to push the US back out of the East China Sea, and across yo its side of the Pacific. Its not there yet, but it won't be long.

When it happens, expect bicycle parts to be in short supply for a while.
 
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Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
Russia from feared ''2nd army of the world'' to laughing stock in less than 12 months, From deploying their Armata t14 to the elite tank corps to t64 from the 60'' Usa and blackock (a hedgefund?) have no formal part in this war. It's Ukraine vs Russia with Ukraine being supported by the US and other countries. And Russia only by Iran, and maybe a few others. All ruled by dictators from some reason. and you tell me to get with reality?

You’ve swallowed too much propaganda from the main stream media. Russia are taking territory slowly. Ukraine are loosing men and precious resources. It’s just the USA using them for a proxy war against Russia. They’re not helping Ukraine or Europe. Much of Europe want to trade with Russia. It’s the Globalists of the USA who are responsible for all this.
 
America has been upping the anti China stuff for a while now.They fear the Chinese want to take over the world and replace the US as the number one power.
Where as I don't see that,I don't see China issuing the threats or going to war against anyone.Looks like it's ramping up though.Saying it out loud is a big step up.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-xi-jinping-takes-rare-direct-aim-at-u-s-in-speech-5d8fde1a
Considering how they are sidelining Russia over their war in Ukraine it sounds a lot like making noise, more or less in response of the US. Having said that a War with China would affect the world much more than the war with Russia does.
On the other hand China has much more to loose if like Russia their posessions are being taken away by sanctions and such as we(collective west) did with Russia's boats, state oil companies etc.
China is getting ready to push the US back out of the East China Sea, and across yo its side of the Pacific. Its not there yet, but it won't be long.

When it happens, expect bicycle parts to be in short supply for a while.
In all fairness i think it's the US who started upping the narrative, most known under Trump but US sanctions and limitation on Chinese companies are long before that. i wouldn't call them unjustified either, there are more then enough suggestions Chinese companies are in fact data mines for their government, also helped by the laws in China.

You’ve swallowed too much propaganda from the main stream media. Russia are taking territory slowly. Ukraine are loosing men and precious resources. It’s just the USA using them for a proxy war against Russia. They’re not helping Ukraine or Europe. Much of Europe want to trade with Russia. It’s the Globalists of the USA who are responsible for all this.
You don't known what my sources are, and it's rather insulting that after everything i have posted including sources that you still claim that. Just because it doesn't fit your ''Russia is great'' narrative. I think it's rather the other way round you read to much pro-russia propaganda. But yes in some area's they are slowly gaining, but at a price, the death rate in Bakmut around 7 to 1 so for every 7 death Russians one Ukranian is killed.
The little bigger picture is that they can't keep up this advance because troops they are killed can't participate in new advances, Ukraine in the meantime still has reserves left, Bakmut is still not in Russian hands, they simply withdrawed to the river because is much better defendable.

The USA and western partners where sure Ukraine would fall little more then a year ago, they supplied help when with very little Ukraine proved to be stronger then Russia, and now the Russian propaganda tune is ''It's an proxy war'' that about as true as the withdrawal from Kiyv, Sumy oblast, Izum, Karkiv and Kherson is either an ''gesture of goodwill'' or ''tactical retreat'' in normal terms we call that defeat.
 
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Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
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Much of Europe want to trade with Russia. It’s the Globalists of the USA who are responsible for all this.

Trade was the policy leading up to the war. Wandel durch Handel was tha motto of the grand coalition German Govt - change Russia by trade.

A policy that proved a complete failure. Putin's intentions became apparent by 2014 with the annexation of Crimea.

You can blame the USA for many things but this war isn't one of them. Even Trump warned the Germans of their dependency on Russian gas supplies, but naivety and greed for cheap gas won the day.

There is no intention of resuming gas imports once the war is over, the loss is permanent.

Putin may have been bothered by the eastern expansion of NATO, but his subsequent actions have proved the east European countries were right to want the security NATO offers.
 
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Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
Considering how they are sidelining Russia over their war in Ukraine it sounds a lot like making noise, more or less in response of the US. Having said that a War with China would affect the world much more than the war with Russia does.
On the other hand China has much more to loose if like Russia their posessions are being taken away by sanctions and such as we(collective west) did with Russia's boats, state oil companies etc.

In all fairness i think it's the US who started upping the narrative, most known under Trump but US sanctions and limitation on Chinese companies are long before that. i wouldn't call them unjustified either, there are more then enough suggestions Chinese companies are in fact data mines for their government, also helped by the laws in China.


You don't known what my sources are, and it's rather insulting that after everything i have posted including sources that you still claim that. Just because it doesn't fit your ''Russia is great'' narrative. I think it's rather the other way round you read to much pro-russia propaganda. But yes in some area's they are slowly gaining, but at a price, the death rate in Bakmut around 7 to 1 so for every 7 death Russians one Ukranian is killed.
The little bigger picture is that they can't keep up this advance because troops they are killed can't participate in new advances, Ukraine in the meantime still has reserves left, Bakmut is still not in Russian hands, they simply withdrawed to the river because is much better defendable.

The USA and western partners where sure Ukraine would fall little more then a year ago, they supplied help when with very little Ukraine proved to be stronger then Russia, and now the Russian propaganda tune is ''It's an proxy war'' that about as true as the withdrawal from Kiyv, Sumy oblast, Izum, Karkiv and Kherson is either an ''gesture of goodwill'' or ''tactical retreat'' in normal terms we call that defeat.

I respect what you are saying but it’s a war of attrition & Russia have always won by sacrificing numbers. Russia has its friend China, the sanctions aren’t hardly hurting the huge power of Russia.
 
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