War with Russia

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Rusty Nails

Country Member
And there are some people who still insist it is the fault of NATO.

There's little that can be done militarily to resolve this that will not lead to a spread of war across Europe and this mad dictator knows it. Economic sanctions have to be increased immediately.
 

MrGrumpy

Regular
And there are some people who still insist it is the fault of NATO.

There's little that can be done militarily to resolve this that will not lead to a spread of war across Europe and this mad dictator knows it. Economic sanctions have to be increased immediately.
All I’m reading is sanctions this sanctions that but what exactly is that ?? I really don’t see what’s going to stop this guy. Hellbent on starting a war !!
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
I was wondering earlier: are the people of Kiev having many discussions about mask-wearing, LFT tests, etc this week?
I can't imagine that having a potentially displaced population and hospitals seeing an increase in casualties is going to help with their management of the pandemic. It's not a trivial consideration.
 
I don't think there is much relevance here. NATO is not a weak military force, if we consider the members defence hardware involved.
NATO has a potential of around 3.5 million troops covering Army Navy and Air Forces. Russia around 800000 (trained professionals).

NATO has around 4000 Combat Jet Aircraft. Russia has around 1200, some are old frames to say the least.
NATO has around 9000 MBT's. Russia around 3000 and some old relics in a barn in Siberia somewhere...

Off the top of my head, NATO has around 15 aircraft carriers. Russia has 1 old knackered one...

You get the picture, NATO is not short of military hardware.
It isn't however it doesn't really put fear in the enemy's eyes either, the us is by far the biggest contributor both in troops as in material.
The issue is it's all on paper for NATO and in an 'ideal scenario' type of deal. Troop and hardware commitments by member states can be flaky at best, Member states may differ on responses to crisis and the command structure is such that a NATO commander has limited authority over the forces. For example, the NATO commander could not punish his troops for failing to obey a lawful order, dereliction of duty and even if the soldier pisses on his shoes, the commander is powerless... Russia doesn't have that problem. Russia's unity in organisation, structure and command is far superior. It should not be underestimated...
Believe me as a Dutchman i know, i happen to know a few friends who served in Sebrenicia as an unarmed peace force with the promise of air support of needed, the air support never came, it was all under uncr/nato umbrella. But the us decided against air support on the last minute so it didn't happen.
Trump has said a lot of cack. But he was referring to the NATO requirement to spend 2% of their GDP on defence. Most are not... Frankly, whether it really would make a difference to Russian foreign policy makers as to whether Slovakia was spending 2% of their GDP on defence or not is up for a mickey mouse style debate. We all know the answer...
Sure he did, but if the Us is the biggest contributor he has/had a point in my view and i know the 2% isn't met, if they only started meeting it when Trump said so it wouldn't have made a difference but if they started 20/25 years ago i might have been a different story. Alltough not all of it just like you said the command structure is also an issue.


Russia knows it can push the boundaries. It knows that many NATO members severity of response is likely to differ as in part they rely on them for fossil fuels. It knows, NATO will not intervene militarily in Ukraine, a non-NATO country. There is too much at stake for NATO and Russia can simply absorb the sanctions and if we're being honest, the gas will continue to pump and in 12 months Russia will like be moving ahead with Nord Stream 2 again. The only way to hurt Russia, is the only thing keeping tens of millions warm and with power to their homes...
Sure but NATO should known his weaknesses, and thus not expand, whether it's as a candidate/aspiring membership or an full membership if they can't keep the promises as the military alliance provide. It does'nt take an rocket scientist to see NATO vs Russia was'nt going to work, so why offer an membership if you can't deliver on the expected protection?
 
And there are some people who still insist it is the fault of NATO.

There's little that can be done militarily to resolve this that will not lead to a spread of war across Europe and this mad dictator knows it. Economic sanctions have to be increased immediately.
Surely Putin is an Mad Dictator, but the NATO should have known what offering an membership will result in. Just as the EU should have, if you look into any dictators mind the main thing that triggers them is a threat to their power or grabbing more power. The eu/Nato expansions are seen as a threat to Putins power, with a result he grabs more power.

So i would say both are at fault, Putin offcourse a lot more.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Surely Putin is an Mad Dictator, but the NATO should have known what offering an membership will result in. Just as the EU should have, if you look into any dictators mind the main thing that triggers them is a threat to their power or grabbing more power. The eu/Nato expansions are seen as a threat to Putins power, with a result he grabs more power.

So i would say both are at fault, Putin offcourse a lot more.
NATO have not offered membership to Ukraine. As far as I know they are not offered membership of the EU.

What power is NATO grabbing by giving membership to independent nations? There is no attempt to move into Russia.

Russia was not under any threat, except in Putin’s mind, and his need to appear strong to his subjects.
 
NATO have not offered membership to Ukraine. As far as I know they are not offered membership of the EU.

What power is NATO grabbing by giving membership to independent nations? There is no attempt to move into Russia.

Russia was not under any threat, except in Putin’s mind, and his need to appear strong to his subjects.
''On 12 June 2020, Ukraine joined NATO's enhanced opportunity partner interoperability program. According to an official NATO statement, the new status "does not prejudge any decisions on NATO membership." source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations#Request_of_guarantees_of_Ukraine's_non-accession_to_NATO

Now i known it might not be an full membership or path to full membership, just as the associating agreement with the EU wouldn't officallly be an EU membership. However it's widely seen as the next step. Just as the association agreement said ''no military support to Ukraine'' virtually all EU countries have send weapons.

And then the US putting or planning to put his misile defence systems there.. Legally there is off course nothing wrong with offering an membership to independent countries, realistically they should have thought this trough. (and yes that isn't a perfect situation in an ideal world it shouldn't matter what an independent neighbor country does, but it isn't an ideal world so it does matter.)
 

Ian H

Legendary Member
And there are some people who still insist it is the fault of NATO.

There's little that can be done militarily to resolve this that will not lead to a spread of war across Europe and this mad dictator knows it. Economic sanctions have to be increased immediately.
It's legitimate to say that NATO's eastward expansion has fuelled Putin's paranoia. He sees NATO as the USA and its sphere of influence.
NATO have not offered membership to Ukraine. As far as I know they are not offered membership of the EU.

What power is NATO grabbing by giving membership to independent nations? There is no attempt to move into Russia.

Russia was not under any threat, except in Putin’s mind, and his need to appear strong to his subjects.
Re Ukraine and NATO
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
It's legitimate to say that NATO's eastward expansion has fuelled Putin's paranoia. He sees NATO as the USA and its sphere of influence.

Re Ukraine and NATO
It does not take much to fuel a paranoiac’s fantasies.

Ukraine is not in NATO, and it is highly unlikely that they would have been given the recent sensitivities. That was not enough for Putin who had to show his strength by showing he would not allow it

What is the conflict in Donbas to do with NATO? That is the cause of this conflict, his need for expansion of influence.
 
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Johnno260

Regular
It does not take much to fuel a paranoiac’s fantasies.

Ukraine is not in NATO, and it is highly unlikely that they would have been given the recent sensitivities. That was not enough for Putin who had to show his strength by showing he would not allow it

What is the conflict in Donbas to do with NATO? That is the cause of this conflict, his need for expansion of influence.

Also Russia annexed Crimea as it wanted the shipyards there, nothing to do with NATO either.
 
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