War with Russia

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
You missed a key part of my post: different rules. Boris is in no position to order 10,000 troops to go into a foreign state over-night.
Putin can. It doesn't show lack of smarts on the part of other leaders.

It shows lack of “smarts” (IMHO) that none of them appear to have foreseen this possibility, and, taken action to insulate themselves from dependence on Russian Energy etc. I don’t think this has sprung out of nowhere, it has, I suspect been brewing for a while.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
It's not complicated - someone who had the mainstream media hanging on his every utterance, and gleefully affording him a bigger and more regular platform than any of his high-profile & elected opponents doesn't exactly constitute an 'underdog'. I wasn't even considering the vast amounts of deeply dubious, shady money bankrolling his campaign.

It's a different & much broader discussion to challenge the implication that Farage was the be-all & end-all of Brexit (he absolutely wasn't) and that it would never have happened without him (unquantifable) but that's not the very small (and frankly, pedantic!) point I was trying to make!

Jesus wept! He was, initially, one person, an elected Member of the European Parliament. A role which, IMHO, most of the UK didn’t even know existed, let alone bothered to vote in. He managed to get all of that media coverage you are so fired up about, THEN he wasn’t an underdog. I call THAT impressive, NOT the outcome.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Jesus wept! He was, initially, one person, an elected Member of the European Parliament. A role which, IMHO, most of the UK didn’t even know existed, let alone bothered to vote in. He managed to get all of that media coverage you are so fired up about, THEN he wasn’t an underdog. I call THAT impressive, NOT the outcome.
It's quite surprising for a Remainer that you are impressed by tactics such as lying, encouraging racist attitudes, jingoism and having the ability to tap into people's baser instincts.
It's lucky those tactics didn't fool you though.
 
It's quite surprising for a Remainer that you are impressed by tactics such as lying, encouraging racist attitudes, jingoism and having the ability to tap into people's baser instincts.
It's lucky those tactics didn't fool you though.
It really isn't about that, more about arrogant politicians losing the contact with their voters an the various fractions jumping in that gap.
 
Meanwhile Putin know's his little war is so loved, that he uses Chechen forces to take Kiev/Kyiv because there will be less outrage if they come back in body bags....
 

Johnno260

Regular
"The Ukrainian crisis has nothing to do with Ukraine. It’s about Germany and, in particular, a pipeline that connects Germany to Russia called Nord Stream 2. Washington sees the pipeline as a threat to its primacy in Europe and has tried to sabotage the project at every turn. Even so, Nord Stream has pushed ahead and is now fully-operational and ready-to-go. Once German regulators provide the final certification, the gas deliveries will begin. German homeowners and businesses will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy while Russia will see a significant boost to their gas revenues. It’s a win-win situation for both parties.
The US Foreign Policy establishment is not happy about these developments. They don’t want Germany to become more dependent on Russian gas because commerce builds trust and trust leads to the expansion of trade. As relations grow warmer, more trade barriers are lifted, regulations are eased, travel and tourism increase, and a new security architecture evolves. In a world where Germany and Russia are friends and trading partners, there is no need for US military bases, no need for expensive US-made weapons and missile systems, and no need for NATO. There’s also no need to transact energy deals in US Dollars or to stockpile US Treasuries to balance accounts. Transactions between business partners can be conducted in their own currencies which is bound to precipitate a sharp decline in the value of the dollar and a dramatic shift in economic power. This is why the Biden administration opposes Nord Stream. It’s not just a pipeline, it’s a window into the future; a future in which Europe and Asia are drawn closer together into a massive free trade zone that increases their mutual power and prosperity while leaving the US on the outside looking in. Warmer relations between Germany and Russia signal an end to the “unipolar” world order the US has overseen for the last 75 years. A German-Russo alliance threatens to hasten the decline of the Superpower that is presently inching closer to the abyss. This is why Washington is determined to do everything it can to sabotage Nord Stream and keep Germany within its orbit. It’s a matter of survival.
That’s where Ukraine comes into the picture. Ukraine is Washington’s ‘weapon of choice’ for torpedoing Nord Stream and putting a wedge between Germany and Russia. The strategy is taken from page one of the US Foreign Policy Handbook under the rubric: Divide and Rule. Washington needs to create the perception that Russia poses a security threat to Europe. That’s the goal. They need to show that Putin is a bloodthirsty aggressor with a hair-trigger temper who cannot be trusted. To that end, the media has been given the assignment of reiterating over and over again, “Russia is planning to invade Ukraine.” What’s left unsaid is that Russia has not invaded any country since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and that the US has invaded or toppled regimes in more than 50 countries in the same period of time, and that the US maintains over 800 military bases in countries around the world. None of this is reported by the media, instead the focus is on “evil Putin” who has amassed an estimated 100,000 troops along the Ukrainian border threatening to plunge all of Europe into another bloody war.
All of the hysterical war propaganda is created with the intention of manufacturing a crisis that can be used to isolate, demonize and, ultimately, splinter Russia into smaller units. The real target, however, is not Russia, but Germany. Check out this excerpt from an article by Michael Hudson at The Unz Review:
“The only way left for U.S. diplomats to block European purchases is to goad Russia into a military response and then claim that avenging this response outweighs any purely national economic interest. As hawkish Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Victoria Nuland, explained in a State Department press briefing on January 27: “If Russia invades Ukraine one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”
There it is in black and white. The Biden team wants to “goad Russia into a military response” in order to sabotage Nord Stream. That implies there will be some kind of provocation designed to induce Putin to send his troops across the border to defend the ethnic Russians in the eastern part of the country. If Putin takes the bait, the response would be swift and harsh. The media will excoriate the action as a threat to all of Europe while leaders around the world will denounce Putin as the “new Hitler”. This is Washington’s strategy in a nutshell, and the whole production is being orchestrated with one goal in mind; to make it politically impossible for the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz to wave Nord Stream through the final approval process. This does NOT need to be FACT CHECKED as its true.

Copy and pasting nonsense never works out well for you, the last time you tried that was the list of credible doctors.

Putin has always had a chip on his shoulder regarding Ukraine, it had shipyards he wanted, and it's usual rich with mineral wealth and agriculture.
 

MrGrumpy

Regular
Hmm wonder if those in the know suspect Putin has that on his list or watching what the leaders do in those parts. The lads in spec ops reconnaissance apparently. :whistle:
 
No different to the British using Gurkhas in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think the Gurkhas were specifically deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan in place of other UK troops though, as far as I know.

You have to admire those Russians taking to their streets in protest this week; inevitable response from the authorities on the cards I would imagine.

If Putin isn't stopped you have to wonder what will happen with Taiwan. All very concerning.
 

FishFright

Well-Known Member
May i ask what was mishandled? Ukraine voted overwhelmingly to be an independent state in 1991. Ukraine gave up its Nuclear weapons and Uranium enrichment, Much of its hardware mothballed and scrapped. Its Aircraft carrier sold to China. They laid down arms, in large because of the assurances laid upon them in the Budapest agreement as a NPT (non-nuclear weapon state) with a couple of points to note:

  • The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

  • The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

Im just curious then, rather than claim it was mishandled, what should/could have been done?

Not drawing the border a couple of miles inside of Russia would have been a great start. Allowing the border to be drawn effectively removing Russia's most important Black Sea naval base was a serious mistake too.

The region was in chaos at the time so mistakes were bound to be made but those two were always a conflict in the making.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
It's quite surprising for a Remainer that you are impressed by tactics such as lying, encouraging racist attitudes, jingoism and having the ability to tap into people's baser instincts.
It's lucky those tactics didn't fool you though.

In my post, which you quoted, would you care to show me where I mentioned any of the bolded bits?, let alone said I admired them?
 
D

Deleted member 121

Guest
Not drawing the border a couple of miles inside of Russia would have been a great start. Allowing the border to be drawn effectively removing Russia's most important Black Sea naval base was a serious mistake too.

The region was in chaos at the time so mistakes were bound to be made but those two were always a conflict in the making.
The boundaries drawn were agreed with the Russian Federation and further supported in the signing of the Budapest agreement. Whether you are right or wrong, Russia in part would also share responsibility for that mistake. Neither of which however, explains the "nazification" of Ukraine....
 
Top Bottom