Who Cares...??

[mudsticks]

Yet even knowing this, members need to continue to bang their heads against its wall, an act suggesting humanity is doomed to failure….

That was my very last time.

 

[swansonj]

Whatever.

I was wondering why the terrible kidnap, rape and murder of a woman by a police officer has led to multiple threads, hundreds of posts about male violence and posts long enough to give rise to a second internet. But the murder of up to 20 babies and young children by a young female nurse has not been mentioned anywhere until I did.

Is it because the overwhelming narrative in society is of violence by men towards women? Is it because currently nurses are held in high regard and we can't rock the boat? Is it because the uncomfortable story pushes against the current narrative? Or is there something else going on?

There have been lots of comment on how women can't trust the Police because of Couzens, maybe children shouldn't trust nurses because of Letby? Why is there a difference?

I agree with mudsticks that pressing this question in this context is somewhat insensitive.

However, the question, on its own merits, is valid. I'd suggest part of the answer may be that nurses killing patients is genuinely a few bad apples, that is, it is behaviour contrary to the prevailing culture of nursing; whereas police officers raping or killing women is also rare but is also , however abberant and abhorent, an extreme manifestation of a prevailing culture within policing.

There is an interesting debate to be had on whether the "canteen culture" can ever be fully eliminated in policing, given that part of the skill set required and reason for existence is imposing your will on other people. On the other hand, teaching likewise has imposing your will on others inextricably within it, and is more successful at avoiding laddish canteen culture, which suggests it's a debate worth having.

 

[mudsticks]

I agree with mudsticks that pressing this question in this context is somewhat insensitive.

However, the question, on its own merits, is valid. I'd suggest part of the answer may be that nurses killing patients is genuinely a few bad apples, that is, it is behaviour contrary to the prevailing culture of nursing; whereas police officers raping or killing women is also rare but is also , however abberant and abhorent, an extreme manifestation of a prevailing culture within policing.

There is an interesting debate to be had on whether the "canteen culture" can ever be fully eliminated in policing, given that part of the skill set required and reason for existence is imposing your will on other people. On the other hand, teaching likewise has imposing your will on others inextricably within it, and is more successful at avoiding laddish canteen culture, which suggests it's a debate worth having.

'Canteen culture' aiui is the boys club misogyny (and reportedly other isms too) that leads to poor attitude towards women, and other groups, and closing ranks against anyone who objects to demeaning speech or behaviour, in that regard.

So those attitudes continue.

Of course those attitudes shouldn't be in policing.
If they are there, it needs tackling.

The police 'culture' should have higher, not lower standards than the rest of society.

Policing is about upholding the law, and protecting people.
Which of course will require using restraint techniques, sometimes .

But the 'imposing your will' on others almost suggests that policing is about individual police officers deciding for themselves what they're allowed to 'force' others to do.

Sure most police officers are in their jobs for the public service element.

But by all accounts there are far too many who are all about the 'force'.

The police service will have been underfunded and under supported over recent years in this country.
That's almost a given.

But if they want to rebuild trust, particularly among people who have historically been very ill served by them, there's a lot of work to be done.

Meanwhile who do we trust .??

 

[Pale Rider]

Virtually every thread you are involved in is sooner or later turned into an abusive diatribe against men. It's a big part of the reason the old NACA was closed down, and a big part of the reason only a fraction of the posters involved in the old NACA want to come here.

Even those who largely agree with the message get fed up of it appearing too often, particularly in places where it otherwise has no place.

Some poor sap on CC got a bollocking for saying he needed the 'granny ring' to get up a hill, and another was ticked off for asking about a suitable bike for a present for 'my wife'.

I can't recall any of the participants, but those sort of remarks push the cause backwards, not forwards, especially among those otherwise inclined to agree.

Charity fundraisers have a name for it - compassion fatigue.

Almost silent on it. I wonder how much of that is because all nurses currently hold a mythical saintlike status, and a multiple baby murderer may sour that somewhat?

Clearly no-one on here is interested.

Letby's case is a great deal different, not least because the alleged crimes dribbled into the public domain months or years after the event.

It lacks the simplicity and immediacy of Sarah Everard.

Babies under threat in hospital do not resonate with the public to the same degree as a lone woman at threat in the street because the hospital situation is more complicated and hidden from view.

Letby is also pleading not guilty, which limits the coverage pre-trial, whereas Couzens coughed part of the job almost immediately, and the rest of it soon after.

Ms Everard was killed, which meant she could be named in all stories relating to Couzens.

As I mentioned earlier, many of Letby's victims will remain anonymous, which like it or not, reduces the impact of the story in the minds of the general public.

However, I am confident there will still be lots of coverage when the trial gets underway.

 

[fozy tornip]

How does aggression fatigue manifest, or is it not a thing?

 

[Mr Celine]

Whatever.

I was wondering why the terrible kidnap, rape and murder of a woman by a police officer has led to multiple threads, hundreds of posts about male violence and posts long enough to give rise to a second internet. But the murder of up to 20 babies and young children by a young female nurse has not been mentioned anywhere until I did.

Is it because the overwhelming narrative in society is of violence by men towards women? Is it because currently nurses are held in high regard and we can't rock the boat? Is it because the uncomfortable story pushes against the current narrative? Or is there something else going on?

No, it's because you haven't started a thread about murderous nurses.

 

[mudsticks]

I've noticed over the years

The ones who most object to any talk of what needs to be done to tackle the root causes of male on female violence, and abuse*.

Culture change, attitude change, language change, and so on.

Are the same ones who are most vigorous in defending their own rights to make disparaging or offensive remarks, to and about women.

Because of their own unquestioned right to 'free speech' apparently

However if we exercise our right to free speech and object to certain forms of unpleasant language, and behaviour that are going unchallenged, which are feeding into the culture.??.

Then we are indulging in

'man hating diatribes'

Despite no evidence having actually been supplied to support that assertion.


Meanwhile ms Sturgeon asserts what many women have been saying for a long time.

This isn't 'our' problem to fix.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-misogynistic-behaviour-says-nicola-sturgeon


Basically it's over to you guys.

We will watch with interest.

* Not forgetting of course that majority of this isn't random street violence, at the hands of a stranger, most of it happens behind closed doors with people already known to the victim.

Were statistically safer, out and about really.

As I often remind the women I know who are a little bit nervous about sallying forth by themselves.

How does aggression fatigue manifest, or is it not a thing?

There's seemingly, an inexhaustible supply, from some quarters..

If only we could harness it like natural gas eh??

We could all be running our central heating on it !!

But really if we would just be patient for how much longer.?

A few more decades,? maybe.?

Ask nicely - but not ask too often mind.

Don't want to annoy anyone - I mean you know where that leads - right ??

Maybe, just maybe someone might find the stopcock, and dial the supply down a touch, perhaps??.

 

[classic33]

Did you bother reading the article and listening to how she feels about it all.??

And try to take that in.

Especially after what happened to her at the vigil for Sarah.

But no, why bother doing that when you can just make puerile and dismissive remarks, about someone else's experience..

People are allowed to use dating apps , without being made to feel threatened.

Using them is a fairly standard practice nowadays.

No one is obligated, to answer any messages, they're designed to be secure , if they dont have the wellbeing of their users as a primary focus, then they don't last long.

You claim to care about women, and their safety, about respect for their rights and wellbeing.

But very little of that comes across, in what you write.

Particularly it would seem towards the only visible woman on here.
All the signs, are in fact to the contrary.

If people can't say anything constructive, or supportive, or insightful, they can just stay away from the conversation.

Isn't she the actress that appeared on morning TV to explain why she hadn't been paid to be there?

Now the verdict has been passed, she reappears. Odd how these things just happen.

 

[mudsticks]

Isn't she the actress that appeared on morning TV to explain why she hadn't been paid to be there?

Now the verdict has been passed, she reappears. Odd how these things just happen.

Hardly 'odd' as the story had come back into the news..
Maybe she wanted to say what had happened to her in the interim?

Because she thought it was important for people to know of her experiences.

I don't know, maybe someone asked her for an interview. ?

I've no idea.

But I don't see why her motives should be seen as so questionable, in particular.

Why so suspicious, in this case.??

Or is that just a general attitude ?

 

[mudsticks]

I don't like that emoji with the knife being brandished.

Sorry, I realise now just how inappropriate that was.

I mean, what damn fool eats porridge with a knife and fork, anyhow ??

Could we perhaps petition for a nice spoon

 

[mudsticks]

For once my views ally with ms Patel's.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-sexual-harassment-law-home-office-pm-offence

There was also something about an 888 app that has been developed by BT, which is supposed to 'keep women safe' you turn it on when you're going somewhere, and your ETA at the other end , then it alerts someone if you don't arrive..

Just more onus on women to have to manage the problem of violence done to them .

Instead of that how about a 666 app??

Anyone who feels some violent, predatory or abusive urges arising can signal for help with it.

There will be trained people on hand to talk them down with anger management, and breath work.

A bit like the Samaritans , but specifically aimed at people who can't control their behaviour.

 

[Cirrus]

For once my views ally with ms Patel's.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-sexual-harassment-law-home-office-pm-offence

There was also something about an 888 app that has been developed by BT, which is supposed to 'keep women safe' you turn it on when you're going somewhere, and your ETA at the other end , then it alerts someone if you don't arrive..

Just more onus on women to have to manage the problem of violence done to them .

Instead of that how about a 666 app??

Anyone who feels some violent, predatory or abusive urges arising can signal for help with it.

There will be trained people on hand to talk them down with anger management, and breath work.

A bit like the Samaritans , but specifically aimed at people who can't control their behaviour.

The BT app sounds like it's quite a good idea, though shouldn't be targeted at women only, am sure that people across the spectrum would find it useful, female, male, adolescents and pensioners am sure they and their loved ones want them home safe.

Re the 666 app, there are incredibly few agencies that work with perpetrators of domestic violence, even if the people want help there are very few routes out there to get it. I attended a J9 course to understand more about DV and of the 40 people in the room, delegates and trainers, I was the only male. I asked the trainers about who was working with perpetrators and they said there wasnt any in the area, working with the victims is great but unless we work with the ones doing the abuse then the conveyor belt will continue.

 

[mudsticks]

The BT app sounds like it's quite a good idea, though shouldn't be targeted at women only, am sure that people across the spectrum would find it useful, female, male, adolescents and pensioners am sure they and their loved ones want them home safe.

Re the 666 app, there are incredibly few agencies that work with perpetrators of domestic violence, even if the people want help there are very few routes out there to get it. I attended a J9 course to understand more about DV and of the 40 people in the room, delegates and trainers, I was the only male. I asked the trainers about who was working with perpetrators and they said there wasnt any in the area, working with the victims is great but unless we work with the ones doing the abuse then the conveyor belt will continue.

I 100% about working with perpetrators.

Or better still to address behaviours before the offending behaviour starts.

It doesn't just spring out of nowhere.

A lot of it has deep psychological, and even cultural roots.

And it's 'normalised' in society, violence and murder is in so much 'entertainment' including violent porn - horrible.

It suggests that this kind of abusive or toxic behaviour is somehow allowed or justified in some circumstances.

That perpetrators can take by force or fear 'what they want'.

Or are allowed to control others through fear.

In truth that 'control through fear' is already happening to a vast number of people, many of them women.

Their fear of violent consequences either in the home, or out and about, often prevents them from living full, and flourishing lives.

So many 'keeping safe' steps to consider, before doing, or saying anything.

It's just not fair.

Edited to add the 888 app could easily be used in controlling and co ercive relationships, to track every movement.of someone who is already a victim.

'Home safe' isn't that for everyone..

 

[Cirrus]

'Home safe' isn't that for everyone..

Very true, often the workplace is the only area where the victims are free for a period of time, and an opportunity to seek help, one of the strands of the J9 course was about providing help/support in the workplace.

 

[mudsticks]

Very true, often the workplace is the only area where the victims are free for a period of time, and an opportunity to seek help, one of the strands of the J9 course was about providing help/support in the workplace.

Understanding the signs and being prepared to offer help, or support is key.

Many victims of abuse are very good at hiding their situation, and will deny there's a problem for fear of 'the consequences'


Because they've been shamed or blamed into believing it's 'their' fault.

They believe they getting what they 'deserve' .

Their self worth, and self esteem will be on the floor, if they're being manipulated or controlled into believing they're the 'problem'

This all needs a lot more work, from everyone.

Yes effective police and justice 'after the fact'

But prevention, way before thoughts of acting out this behaviour, has got to be better than retribution, after the crime .

Anyway, time for me to go on a nice peaceful walk in the woods..

Pretty much free from fear, no dog, no concealed weapon, only the occasional glance over my shoulder when my footsteps echo behind me.

If only everyone else was so 'lucky' right ?