American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

[AuroraSaab]

OK. Just checking. I mean, organinising a huge demo at the family home of someone because you disagree with them, however emotive the issue, isn't something I imagine most people would support but there you go.

 

[Ian H]

OK. Just checking. I mean, organinising a huge demo at the family home of someone because you disagree with them, however emotive the issue, isn't something I imagine most people would support but there you go.

'Emotive' is perhaps rather a weak term to describe a serious attack on the autonomy of 50% of the population.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I agree it is an attack on women's rights. I think you have to draw the line somewhere though on what is acceptable in terms of demonstrating against something, however important that issue is. When you live in a democracy there are many other avenues open to you other than turning up at the house where someone lives with their family. On which issues is it ok to have a mass demo outside someone's home? Just abortion? Where would you draw the line?

 

[Unkraut]

I don't think 'life starts at conception' (even if you accept this as true, which I don't) was an ancient or Biblical thing because surely the knowledge that it's the sperm meeting the egg didn't come till much later.

I don't think the ancients were quite as lacking in knowledge from observation of life as we might think! The Hebrew and Greek words for an infant child refer both to children before and after birth. They are persons before birth - For thou didst form my inward parts,
thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.

It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to ask if life doesn't begin at conception, when does it begin.

The trouble with saying that if we all followed the Bible there wouldn't be any rape or incest and thus no need for abortion is that, even if that were true, we have to deal with the world as it is now, where there is rape, poverty, serious foetal disability etc.

Yes we do have to deal with the world as it is I agree. I don't see why a biblical diagnosis of that world should automatically be out of order whilst the grown ups without it discuss the issues. You know - a religious person, idiot, doesn't have science and reason. One of my problems with this is that modern secularists assert that if a man says he is a woman, then he is (as you well know!) whilst at the same time being unable to give a definition of what a woman is.

It is still a leading cause of death amongst women,

Abortion is now the leading cause of death worldwide. I believe I have read/heard that the majority of these are female.

 

[Unkraut]

Roe v Wade is an American issue within that culture. Upthread American evangelicals were particularly criticised for their stance on this. I have listened to this constituency on and off for a long time, but below is a short summary of the beginning of a semon by John MacArthur, an elder statesman in the movement, given in light of recent developments supplemented by a couple of things from memory. It shows where they are coming from. I have kept their teminology:

One third of conceptions end in abortion. More are killed than born amongst married women

Planned parenthood – 'pregnancy is an STD and abortion is the cure'. Babies are now a disease?

You can do to a baby in the womb what it is illegal to do to your domestic pets

Methods

1st trimester – vacuum pump is used or a sharp instrument or the head is crushed

2nd – saline solution is used after amniotic fluid removed, baby is burned and dies. Stillbirth follows

3rd – Some states have introduced abortion up to full term. One blogger noted that when the legislation was passed feminists outside the govt building wept for joy. If this results in a live birth if botched, it is illegal to try to save the baby, who is put on a slab and left to die or killed. Some are used for research purposes – if I understood correctly whilst still alive. There have even been discussions of post-birth abortion.

This has sporned a huge and very profitable industry. One doctor alone with a turnover of $9 million a year. (Personal conversation with MacArthur)

Parents are kept in the dark over the ending of teenage pregnancies.

Information on the possible unhealthy affects of abortion.

'A holocaust of convenience killing'

 

[AuroraSaab]

I simply can't agree with you here that a 2 week pregnancy is the same as a 38 week one. Nor that any religions teaching on abortion should be imposed on non believers. Society comes to a consensus on these things.

In many areas we balance rights and most people would see that the 'rights' of a small collection of cells in an early pregnancy do not carry the same weight (if any) as those of a 38 week embryo which would survive if born. In both cases, these rights, such as they are, must be looked at in context of the woman's right to consider her own physical and psychological welfare.

I think the abortion care in the US leaves much to be desired, and yes, profits rule all in American health care, but there are countries which do strike the right balance, like the UK.

 

[mudsticks]

It's all about controlling women...

If 'pro lifers' believed in 'life' they wouldn't be tying to endanger women's wellbeing by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies.

Or criminalising them for having bodily autonomy

They'd be provisioning welfare, and protecting humans who already exist

Not just in the US , but worldwide.

It's just more violent men, trying to control women under the guise of being 'pro life'

You only have to look at how much the industrial military killing complex spends on its repugnant activities, compared with that spent on peace building , and humanitarian activities, to see where priorities lie.

 

[newfhouse]

It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to ask if life doesn't begin at conception, when does it begin.

It is an interesting question but the answer, if there is one, doesn’t add much to the argument.

What is so magical about the moment of conception? That seems pretty arbitrary. Why isn’t a sperm or egg cell alive and deserving of individual care?

 

[winjim]

There's so much nonsense flying about on this thread that I think to avoid getting dragged into it and for the sake of my own sanity and respect for other people the sensible thing to do is to mute it. Before I do, here's Jen Gunter again on supposed 'late term' abortion.

https://drjengunter.com/2019/02/11/...-term-abortion-a-procedure-that-doesnt-exist/

 

[Julia9054]

One of my problems with this is that modern secularists assert that if a man says he is a woman, then he is (as you well know!) whilst at the same time being unable to give a definition of what a woman is.

As you well know, views on this topic (irrelevant here) are not divided along religious lines and there are a range of views completely unrelated to whether someone believes in a god or not.

1st trimester – vacuum pump is used or a sharp instrument or the head is crushed

This is completely incorrect. Up to 11 weeks, abortion is medical not surgical. Your sermon giver is lying to provoke sensationalist outrage.

 

[winjim]

The irony of my feeling I have to leave the discussion because of posts made by religious moralists is not lost on me, just so you know.


Is irony the right word? Is there a term for irony that also means really bitter and shitty? I dunno, anyway you get my point.

 

[mudsticks]

The irony of my feeling I have to leave the discussion because of posts made by religious moralists is not lost on me, just so you know.


Is irony the right word? Is there a term for irony that also means really bitter and shitty? I dunno, anyway you get my point.

You don't have to leave it because of people posting stuff like this..

Roe v Wade is an American issue within that culture. Upthread American evangelicals were particularly criticised for their stance on this. I have listened to this constituency on and off for a long time, but below is a short summary of the beginning of a semon by John MacArthur, an elder statesman in the movement, given in light of recent developments supplemented by a couple of things from memory. It shows where they are coming from. I have kept their teminology:

One third of conceptions end in abortion. More are killed than born amongst married women

Planned parenthood – 'pregnancy is an STD and abortion is the cure'. Babies are now a disease?

You can do to a baby in the womb what it is illegal to do to your domestic pets

Methods

1st trimester – vacuum pump is used or a sharp instrument or the head is crushed

2nd – saline solution is used after amniotic fluid removed, baby is burned and dies. Stillbirth follows

3rd – Some states have introduced abortion up to full term. One blogger noted that when the legislation was passed feminists outside the govt building wept for joy. If this results in a live birth if botched, it is illegal to try to save the baby, who is put on a slab and left to die or killed. Some are used for research purposes – if I understood correctly whilst still alive. There have even been discussions of post-birth abortion.

This has sporned a huge and very profitable industry. One doctor alone with a turnover of $9 million a year. (Personal conversation with MacArthur)

Parents are kept in the dark over the ending of teenage pregnancies.

Information on the possible unhealthy affects of abortion.

'A holocaust of convenience killing'

But I would understand why you would..

it's not possible to have rational discussions with garbage
such as above flying around .

Especially when it's contributed by someone who won't even engage with many of the real live women on this thread, or their challenges..

.. Which is of course is quite telling in itself...

Claud gets 'told off' for calling someone a naughty name..

Mr @Unkraut gets a 'sensible' answer for posting garbage..

Same old same old..

I seem to have a very busy week / life coming up...

 

[BoldonLad]

You don't have to leave it because of people posting stuff like this..

But I would understand why you would..

it's not possible to have rational discussions with garbage
such as above flying around .

Especially when it's contributed by someone who won't even engage with many of the real live women on this thread, or their challenges..

.. Which is of course is quite telling in itself...

Claud gets 'told off' for calling someone a naughty name..

Mr @Unkraut gets a 'sensible' answer for posting garbage..

Same old same old..

I seem to have a very busy week / life coming up...

As a total none believer, I don’t agree with one word @Unkraut says, but, he has the right to believe it and say it (IMHO). You dismissing it as “garbage” says more about you than him.

Oops! Think I misplaced the ball for a minute there.

 

[Bromptonaut]

As a total none believer, I don’t agree with one word @Unkraut says, but, he has the right to believe it and say it (IMHO). You dismissing it as “garbage” says more about you than him.

Oops! Think I misplaced the ball for a minute there.

I agree with BL.

The rationale set out by @Unkraut is completely foreign to me as an unbeliever but that's the sort of theory that's driving US States.

It's usually helpful to understand how your opponent thinks...

 

[icowden]

This is completely incorrect. Up to 11 weeks, abortion is medical not surgical. Your sermon giver is lying to provoke sensationalist outrage.

I have to give the benefit of the doubt on this one and declare that you are both correct.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/what-happens/

In the UK both medical and surgical abortion are available up to 24 weeks of pregnancy.
It's also important to note that you attend an assessment appointment where you discuss the termination with medical professionals have the option of speaking to a trained counsellor, have an ultrasound to establish how many weeks pregnant you are etc. You don't just "pop in" and get given a couple of pills.

What women do get is support and reassurance about taking a (usually) very difficult decision.

My favourite line in Atwood's essay is this:

If the state is mandating enforced childbirth, why should it not pay for prenatal care, for the birth itself, for postnatal care, and – for babies who are not sold off to richer families – for the cost of bringing up the child?

Maybe if the same men legislating over women's bodies also legislated to ensure that the men impregnating them provided full financial and emotional support for the rest of the child's life, the issue would be less contentious. If they are that desperate for women to give birth rather than have terminations, then a full package of financial and emotional support for that woman and child should also be mandatory.